Circular logic. Inevitability. Doubt as proof rather than as evidence to the contrary.
Although many of the victims of this cult will leave it, many never will. It’s hard to break through that stuff.
My 85 year old father, I just saw on social media, held a “New Year’s” celebration last September to celebrate his long dead guru’s “ revelation.” It’s been nearly 60 years since he joined his cult. Despite the cult no longer functioning as a distinct organization, he carries on.
I am reminded of when the NYTimes ran an excellent piece on the recovered memory scandal of the 80s-90s. Quite a few of the comments were people saying, "Well, if I my therapist hadn't helped me to recover my repressed memories, I would never have realized I was molested."
You know, with the first couple people you quoted I was actually feeling some hope. There are actually, in my opinion, some really important signs of some real, if early, attempts at critical thinking there! Unfortunately, the rest of the comments you quoted showed none of that, and were pretty awful.
But, I would like to highlight a few things about the first two that I found actually somewhat hopeful:
"However, just because you are doesn't mean you're obligated to transition. If you think you would be happier with your life continuing as is then you're free to do so."
-this, to me, is a massive first step for anyone. Really, imo, it's less important how one chooses to label themselves in their head. The number one most important thing for someone in the position of the person who asked the initial question, is that they NOT rush into medical transition that is harmful and not reversible, or even social transition that has major consequences. Avoiding taking those steps can actually allow the person time to mature and work through their issues, whatever they may be.
"You may wish to look for other unresolved psychological issues that may be causing something that appears similar to dysphoria / euphoria and other trans feelings."
-oh. my. God. I am so, so hopeful to see such a statement on a trans message board! While it's not exactly a strong opinion, it does leave the door open for the reader to realize that something else just might be going on other than being trans for life, and that's it's okay to explore such issues, and to wait to transition while you do so! To me that is HUGE if we're talking about preventing harm to people, and preventing them, especially someone of this age (19), from making decisions that will change the course of their lives and make their trans identity more difficult to put down. Again, it's a crucial first step.
People rarely change all at once (though there are plenty of exceptions to that). They typically change gradually by taking small steps toward their destination. And I think that these two little pieces of advice are actually small-or even medium size-steps in the right direction. At the very least they aren't steps in the wrong direction, which is also important.
"Anyone convincing you of your identity should be ignored. They want what's best or easiest for them - not what's best for you"
-this one I think could cut both ways. I think it's worthwhile to reread that first sentence. While it certainly could add fuel to a fire meant to alienate loved ones strictly over their questioning a trans identity, it could also plant a seed in the mind of the OP, if he is sincere in his doubts and questions, to think for himself. To be a bit suspicious of the comments you quoted later in your post, that are telling him that he is trans and it won't go away. Again, it just might end up being a tiny step in the direction of really exploring himself, as opposed to leaning on empty assurances from others that "you're trans and it won't change ever". I realize that may be a long shot, but those words in italics still stood out to me.
Like I said, I actually saw little reasons to be hopeful at the beginning there. Then it just got worse and worse... But still, I think it's a good thing that there are at least a few people out in the trans webworld who are saying it's okay not to transition even if you view yourself as trans, it's okay or even good to explore other psychological issues that may look like trans...heck, I actually think it's huge that they would even admit that it's possible that that could happen! So while it appears that there is a whole lot of crap advice out there, I'm actually pleased to see a few little chinks of light showing through the walls.
Unfortunately, some of these are not as positive as they appear. There is a lot of appearance of choice, that then gets funneled into "but if you don't transition, you're in denial and you will be unhappy," as follows the statement "However, just because you are doesn't mean you're obligated to transition. If you think you would be happier with your life continuing as is then you're free to do so." It's like: you're not OBLIGATED to transition, but do you want to suppress your real self forever to please your family?
Likewise, I think the important part of this reply is the second half:
"You may wish to look for other unresolved psychological issues that may be causing something that appears similar to dysphoria / euphoria and other trans feelings. But do [sic] suppressing who you are is a bad idea and will only lead to way more misery in the long run."
You might want to look for other things (since he is asking them to tell them he's not trans) but suppressing yourself is a bad idea.
Certainly. There is much equivocation even in the less pushy comments. But, again, I think that knife could cut both ways. So while the positive statements are qualified, so are the negative ones. We can't know the exact state of mind of the young man who made the OP, or of any other "questioning" person who might read the thread. But, if he is having doubts that he is "really trans," at least there are a few little snippets out there that aren't flat-out telling him that nope, you're definitely trans and if you don't fully transition immediately you're just going to be miserable forever. Sometimes people can latch onto the smallest statement in a sea of opposing views if it is what they're looking for. And, other times those opposing views, even if stated quite mildly and with equivocation, can stick with someone in the form of a nagging doubt-they can provide words to the little prickles of discomfort that arise when this guy thinks about transition. It's possible that for someone it could be just enough of an ember to keep that fire from going completely out, even if it takes a long time and a lot of additional support for the flame to pop back up.
Maybe I'm overly optimistic here. I certainly agree that much of what you posted is quite discouraging. But I guess my view is that anything that might give support to the voices of doubt in the person's own head is a good thing, no matter how many opposing statements might follow. It's not going to save the world by any means, but it's better than nothing. I haven't viewed the whole thread or any of it other than what you posted, but I would also take it as a hopeful sign if no one on that forum jumped on the two who posted those statements to "correct" them, or just to completely trash them because they dared suggest that there might be a possibility of another cause of a person's distress, or that transition isn't an absolute necessity. But I respect your opinion also and can understand your rationale too.
There is no positive way to encourage a persons delusions in this situation. The only positive response would be to tell them they cannot be who they are not and that these are feelings that do not need to be acted on but observed and perhaps treated if they persist.
the real kicker here is that the is no kind and reasonable way to suggest to a clearly mentally ill person in need of family and psychological support that the solution to their problem even *might* be going down a road that will literally ruin their life
Yes, which is why the comments I highlighted suggested that the person does not need to jump to transition regardless of how they feel, and that it's okay for them to get some help and explore what else might be going on.
While I understand and agree with your sentiment, the state of the "trans" culture is very, very far from that reality right now. I stand by my personal opinion that most of those people's feelings and opinions, and understanding or view of themselves, is unlikely to go from where it is right to what you said. Generally speaking, while there certainly are exceptions where people have a lightbulb moment and completely change their lives around right from that point without turning back, humans simply do not make such major changes in their outlook so quickly. While obviously I have no crystal ball, I believe the most likely way that we will see a change in the trans community (assuming we ever do see such a change at all, which of course is not a given) is in increments. Meaning it will get slightly less bad, little by little, before it even begins to really get better, and even at that point it will get better little by little as well. There will be many contradictions and qualified sentiments in between. (To be clear, I think the way societal and political opinions change is less predictable; I'm talking here about the change in the way trans-identified and questioning people think of themselves and their peers and communicate with one another.) Think about recovery from any other mental illness: someone with anorexia does not suddenly go from starving themselves and hating their bodies with suicidal intensity, straight to eating deep dish pizza and brownies and proudly strutting around in a bikini. They take tiny steps. They begin to eat the whole apple instead of half, or they eat the half but in two pieces instead of 200. They still hate their body but accept that they must care for it to live. That kind of thing. That's what I'm getting at. And I may be wrong, but I do see those kinds of tiny steps in small parts of the thinking of those two commenters. And in an issue that is such a social contagion (not unlike anorexia), being willing to express even a tiny doubt of one aspect of the whole to a community of people with the same condition is exactly showing some courage and individuality as opposed to parroting the same party lines 110%. (We saw plenty of that in the rest of the comments quoted.)
Again, that's just my personal view and experience of the way change works in conditions that involve delusional thinking and groupthink and social contagion. I do respect your opinion and understand where you're coming from.
There is extreme danger of becoming so self absorbed in gender id that it takes over reality. I liken Gender confusion to a Venus Flytrap plant enticing its prey then completely devouring one's soul. Beginning as endless cycles of erotic crossdressing then shamefully attempting to purge the idea. Fuelling the life long fire of self hatred, loathing,disgust and shame. Then one stops the denial and the fantasy begins to become mixed with reality. One believes to be trans and seeks advice from the trans community which has always been push and pull. That is to push one into being trans then pulling one back if not transitioning to speed. Next the steps to achieving transition, body shaving, electrolysis,hormones,full time cross living then completing the gender journey with sex reassignment surgery.Abandon family,loved ones and anyone that disagrees. Mission accomplished! Unfortunately the euphoria is a relatively short-lived accomplishment. Common is the emotional crash; coming to the realization that hormones,sex reassignment, and legal declaration the reality that gender transition accomplished nothing but only added to pre existing emotional issues . King Solomon in the book of Ecclesiastes lamented "Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought,on the labour that I had laboured to do: and,behold all was vanity and vexation of spirit,and there was no profit under the sun."Doing one's own thing believing to trans be caused self destruction and almost life! Thankfully I became thankful for who I am and what I have. I am a man fearfully and wonderfully made despite having to live with the consequences.
now this guy can tell his parents that he tried heroically NOT to be trans, but really he (and we) knew all along that he was really asking for validation that is IS trans. from seedling to decaying old stump, trans is upside-down and inside out, as far away from reason, truth and logic (and beauty, life and goodness) as you can get.
The blind leading the blind. Of course you are going to promote your new tribe online to anyone looking in and asking questions. You may even doubt your own transition but you don't want to give up your online support mechanism and the safety in numbers feeling. So you will tell a prospective new member to come on in the water is fine.
The online aspect is a problem too. Online is a fantasy world by its very nature. Whole other worlds can be created online. Where people can create characters and live another life. Second Life was an example of this. Are trans people using their online spaces in a similar way? The disaster comes when real life won't play along in the same way.
It seems to me that the increasing use of online communication, and friends who are known only online, is a major problem in society that is hitting our youngest members hardest, and getting worse with every new generation at this point. While I personally think the Internet can be helpful for limited social support and communication and connections, I think we must get much more intentional about creating and promoting ways for all people but especially young people to connect with other humans in real life, face to face.
"My face is so masculine (roman nose, sharp face) and I feel like it would take so much money and time to be female passing. Also I can't imagine the disappointment my friends and family are gonna feel about it. I mean they're all fairly liberal, but still. I've always been a masculine presenting person, playing a bunch of sports, very in shape, low voice, hairy, etc."
How on earth could it occur to a young man with those characteristics to wonder whether he's trans? He sounds like the classic high school or college-age bro. He gives no indication of having experienced gender dysphoria.
In my experience, like attracts like, especially among youth. When I was his age, you'd never find a jock hanging out with the theater kids, for example. Has something changed that would bring someone like him together with the sort of gender nonconforming people I assume are predisposed to pondering their gender identity?
Could it be that he's gay and for some reason he deems it preferable to become a trans woman than to come out as the gay person he is?
Circular logic. Inevitability. Doubt as proof rather than as evidence to the contrary.
Although many of the victims of this cult will leave it, many never will. It’s hard to break through that stuff.
My 85 year old father, I just saw on social media, held a “New Year’s” celebration last September to celebrate his long dead guru’s “ revelation.” It’s been nearly 60 years since he joined his cult. Despite the cult no longer functioning as a distinct organization, he carries on.
I am reminded of when the NYTimes ran an excellent piece on the recovered memory scandal of the 80s-90s. Quite a few of the comments were people saying, "Well, if I my therapist hadn't helped me to recover my repressed memories, I would never have realized I was molested."
Imagining the families permanently destroyed by such delusion is disturbing. No reconciliation with reality there. 😕
You know, with the first couple people you quoted I was actually feeling some hope. There are actually, in my opinion, some really important signs of some real, if early, attempts at critical thinking there! Unfortunately, the rest of the comments you quoted showed none of that, and were pretty awful.
But, I would like to highlight a few things about the first two that I found actually somewhat hopeful:
"However, just because you are doesn't mean you're obligated to transition. If you think you would be happier with your life continuing as is then you're free to do so."
-this, to me, is a massive first step for anyone. Really, imo, it's less important how one chooses to label themselves in their head. The number one most important thing for someone in the position of the person who asked the initial question, is that they NOT rush into medical transition that is harmful and not reversible, or even social transition that has major consequences. Avoiding taking those steps can actually allow the person time to mature and work through their issues, whatever they may be.
"You may wish to look for other unresolved psychological issues that may be causing something that appears similar to dysphoria / euphoria and other trans feelings."
-oh. my. God. I am so, so hopeful to see such a statement on a trans message board! While it's not exactly a strong opinion, it does leave the door open for the reader to realize that something else just might be going on other than being trans for life, and that's it's okay to explore such issues, and to wait to transition while you do so! To me that is HUGE if we're talking about preventing harm to people, and preventing them, especially someone of this age (19), from making decisions that will change the course of their lives and make their trans identity more difficult to put down. Again, it's a crucial first step.
People rarely change all at once (though there are plenty of exceptions to that). They typically change gradually by taking small steps toward their destination. And I think that these two little pieces of advice are actually small-or even medium size-steps in the right direction. At the very least they aren't steps in the wrong direction, which is also important.
"Anyone convincing you of your identity should be ignored. They want what's best or easiest for them - not what's best for you"
-this one I think could cut both ways. I think it's worthwhile to reread that first sentence. While it certainly could add fuel to a fire meant to alienate loved ones strictly over their questioning a trans identity, it could also plant a seed in the mind of the OP, if he is sincere in his doubts and questions, to think for himself. To be a bit suspicious of the comments you quoted later in your post, that are telling him that he is trans and it won't go away. Again, it just might end up being a tiny step in the direction of really exploring himself, as opposed to leaning on empty assurances from others that "you're trans and it won't change ever". I realize that may be a long shot, but those words in italics still stood out to me.
Like I said, I actually saw little reasons to be hopeful at the beginning there. Then it just got worse and worse... But still, I think it's a good thing that there are at least a few people out in the trans webworld who are saying it's okay not to transition even if you view yourself as trans, it's okay or even good to explore other psychological issues that may look like trans...heck, I actually think it's huge that they would even admit that it's possible that that could happen! So while it appears that there is a whole lot of crap advice out there, I'm actually pleased to see a few little chinks of light showing through the walls.
Unfortunately, some of these are not as positive as they appear. There is a lot of appearance of choice, that then gets funneled into "but if you don't transition, you're in denial and you will be unhappy," as follows the statement "However, just because you are doesn't mean you're obligated to transition. If you think you would be happier with your life continuing as is then you're free to do so." It's like: you're not OBLIGATED to transition, but do you want to suppress your real self forever to please your family?
Likewise, I think the important part of this reply is the second half:
"You may wish to look for other unresolved psychological issues that may be causing something that appears similar to dysphoria / euphoria and other trans feelings. But do [sic] suppressing who you are is a bad idea and will only lead to way more misery in the long run."
You might want to look for other things (since he is asking them to tell them he's not trans) but suppressing yourself is a bad idea.
Certainly. There is much equivocation even in the less pushy comments. But, again, I think that knife could cut both ways. So while the positive statements are qualified, so are the negative ones. We can't know the exact state of mind of the young man who made the OP, or of any other "questioning" person who might read the thread. But, if he is having doubts that he is "really trans," at least there are a few little snippets out there that aren't flat-out telling him that nope, you're definitely trans and if you don't fully transition immediately you're just going to be miserable forever. Sometimes people can latch onto the smallest statement in a sea of opposing views if it is what they're looking for. And, other times those opposing views, even if stated quite mildly and with equivocation, can stick with someone in the form of a nagging doubt-they can provide words to the little prickles of discomfort that arise when this guy thinks about transition. It's possible that for someone it could be just enough of an ember to keep that fire from going completely out, even if it takes a long time and a lot of additional support for the flame to pop back up.
Maybe I'm overly optimistic here. I certainly agree that much of what you posted is quite discouraging. But I guess my view is that anything that might give support to the voices of doubt in the person's own head is a good thing, no matter how many opposing statements might follow. It's not going to save the world by any means, but it's better than nothing. I haven't viewed the whole thread or any of it other than what you posted, but I would also take it as a hopeful sign if no one on that forum jumped on the two who posted those statements to "correct" them, or just to completely trash them because they dared suggest that there might be a possibility of another cause of a person's distress, or that transition isn't an absolute necessity. But I respect your opinion also and can understand your rationale too.
There is no positive way to encourage a persons delusions in this situation. The only positive response would be to tell them they cannot be who they are not and that these are feelings that do not need to be acted on but observed and perhaps treated if they persist.
the real kicker here is that the is no kind and reasonable way to suggest to a clearly mentally ill person in need of family and psychological support that the solution to their problem even *might* be going down a road that will literally ruin their life
Yes, which is why the comments I highlighted suggested that the person does not need to jump to transition regardless of how they feel, and that it's okay for them to get some help and explore what else might be going on.
While I understand and agree with your sentiment, the state of the "trans" culture is very, very far from that reality right now. I stand by my personal opinion that most of those people's feelings and opinions, and understanding or view of themselves, is unlikely to go from where it is right to what you said. Generally speaking, while there certainly are exceptions where people have a lightbulb moment and completely change their lives around right from that point without turning back, humans simply do not make such major changes in their outlook so quickly. While obviously I have no crystal ball, I believe the most likely way that we will see a change in the trans community (assuming we ever do see such a change at all, which of course is not a given) is in increments. Meaning it will get slightly less bad, little by little, before it even begins to really get better, and even at that point it will get better little by little as well. There will be many contradictions and qualified sentiments in between. (To be clear, I think the way societal and political opinions change is less predictable; I'm talking here about the change in the way trans-identified and questioning people think of themselves and their peers and communicate with one another.) Think about recovery from any other mental illness: someone with anorexia does not suddenly go from starving themselves and hating their bodies with suicidal intensity, straight to eating deep dish pizza and brownies and proudly strutting around in a bikini. They take tiny steps. They begin to eat the whole apple instead of half, or they eat the half but in two pieces instead of 200. They still hate their body but accept that they must care for it to live. That kind of thing. That's what I'm getting at. And I may be wrong, but I do see those kinds of tiny steps in small parts of the thinking of those two commenters. And in an issue that is such a social contagion (not unlike anorexia), being willing to express even a tiny doubt of one aspect of the whole to a community of people with the same condition is exactly showing some courage and individuality as opposed to parroting the same party lines 110%. (We saw plenty of that in the rest of the comments quoted.)
Again, that's just my personal view and experience of the way change works in conditions that involve delusional thinking and groupthink and social contagion. I do respect your opinion and understand where you're coming from.
I definitely think you are overly optimistic 💜 sadly. Wish it weren’t so.
I agree!!
"This is just my opinion but I would advise living your life for you, not for others."
But then they transition and their happiness is totally reliant on the validation of others.
There is extreme danger of becoming so self absorbed in gender id that it takes over reality. I liken Gender confusion to a Venus Flytrap plant enticing its prey then completely devouring one's soul. Beginning as endless cycles of erotic crossdressing then shamefully attempting to purge the idea. Fuelling the life long fire of self hatred, loathing,disgust and shame. Then one stops the denial and the fantasy begins to become mixed with reality. One believes to be trans and seeks advice from the trans community which has always been push and pull. That is to push one into being trans then pulling one back if not transitioning to speed. Next the steps to achieving transition, body shaving, electrolysis,hormones,full time cross living then completing the gender journey with sex reassignment surgery.Abandon family,loved ones and anyone that disagrees. Mission accomplished! Unfortunately the euphoria is a relatively short-lived accomplishment. Common is the emotional crash; coming to the realization that hormones,sex reassignment, and legal declaration the reality that gender transition accomplished nothing but only added to pre existing emotional issues . King Solomon in the book of Ecclesiastes lamented "Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought,on the labour that I had laboured to do: and,behold all was vanity and vexation of spirit,and there was no profit under the sun."Doing one's own thing believing to trans be caused self destruction and almost life! Thankfully I became thankful for who I am and what I have. I am a man fearfully and wonderfully made despite having to live with the consequences.
now this guy can tell his parents that he tried heroically NOT to be trans, but really he (and we) knew all along that he was really asking for validation that is IS trans. from seedling to decaying old stump, trans is upside-down and inside out, as far away from reason, truth and logic (and beauty, life and goodness) as you can get.
The blind leading the blind. Of course you are going to promote your new tribe online to anyone looking in and asking questions. You may even doubt your own transition but you don't want to give up your online support mechanism and the safety in numbers feeling. So you will tell a prospective new member to come on in the water is fine.
The online aspect is a problem too. Online is a fantasy world by its very nature. Whole other worlds can be created online. Where people can create characters and live another life. Second Life was an example of this. Are trans people using their online spaces in a similar way? The disaster comes when real life won't play along in the same way.
It seems to me that the increasing use of online communication, and friends who are known only online, is a major problem in society that is hitting our youngest members hardest, and getting worse with every new generation at this point. While I personally think the Internet can be helpful for limited social support and communication and connections, I think we must get much more intentional about creating and promoting ways for all people but especially young people to connect with other humans in real life, face to face.
"My face is so masculine (roman nose, sharp face) and I feel like it would take so much money and time to be female passing. Also I can't imagine the disappointment my friends and family are gonna feel about it. I mean they're all fairly liberal, but still. I've always been a masculine presenting person, playing a bunch of sports, very in shape, low voice, hairy, etc."
How on earth could it occur to a young man with those characteristics to wonder whether he's trans? He sounds like the classic high school or college-age bro. He gives no indication of having experienced gender dysphoria.
In my experience, like attracts like, especially among youth. When I was his age, you'd never find a jock hanging out with the theater kids, for example. Has something changed that would bring someone like him together with the sort of gender nonconforming people I assume are predisposed to pondering their gender identity?
Could it be that he's gay and for some reason he deems it preferable to become a trans woman than to come out as the gay person he is?