I always wonder if you're ever quoting my own daughter who went from pansexual to lesbian to gay man -- 6th grade, 8th grade, 10th grade respectively. Now she's "queer/nonbinary" which I pray is her cunning way to back slowly away from medicalizing as she's perched on the precipice of college and adulthood. She is not autistic or body dysmorphic or dysphoric and never has been. She's simply enamored of the scene and wants in. Pretty certain she's straight too but it would be fine if she weren't. It's the bullshit I can't bear. The mental gymnastics of these kids reminds me of me at 16/17 convincing myself that the boy who ignored me and never returned my calls was actually in love with me. Now at 54 I'm white knuckling life until my daughter's prefrontal cortex develops. It's a shitty and wild ride and I hate it.
This might sound odd, but it looks to me like the heart of the problem is a lack of critical thinking skills.
Many of us know that the mind can play weird tricks on us. I mean, we dream and, at the time of the dream, it feels real. And then we wake up, and understand that none of it was real, because the dream doesn't integrate with objective reality.
We check objective reality all the time.
SIDENOTE: I hate that I have to do this but, yes, I understand we can never be entirely sure of our own perception of objective reality. We don't have to be; we assess our certainty by comparing notes with others and taking multiple independent measurements. We do this all the time, and certainty is useful, even when it's not 100%.
Anyway... Many of us understand that if feelings or beliefs don't concord with reality, they're probably wrong. These trans people seem to have got it into their heads that everything they experience MUST BE indicative of some objective truth, even when it negates some other objective truth.
That's a basic lack of critical thinking skills. How did this happen?
Each of us has a voice in our heads - our thought process. This is not the schizophrenic voice. This is the normal voice we listen to internally.
This internal voice is the key to trans and other cult delusional states. When that "still small voice" has the trans belief, it's going to be impossible, or at least extremely difficult, to change that internal notion. This is the reason I completely oppose the use of pronouns or the trans name when a person has convinced himself that he is the other sex. At that moment, the internal voice is on the brink - if the parent or teacher affirms, the voice can be tipped into the delusional state of trans.
It's mind-blowing that this person is so confused that she'd say "So if we take down all of the arbitrary socially constructed ideas of gender, what's left?" and "biological sex" never crosses her mind. That is literally the only thing left. What have we done to these kids? How will they be handling life 20 years from now??
I am bothered by this quote: "I think that it’s weird to say [transition]'s a social thing considering trans ppl have always existed and will continue to exist." This is something people seem to take for granted, and they try to "trans" historical figures to prove the point, but there were no "trans" people until medical transition became a thing, starting with the first experiments in Germany in the 1930's.
If there was no way to medically transition, there would be people who are unhappy with their lot in life as a male or a female (as there always have been), and there would be a smaller number who are convinced they really should have been born the opposite sex (as their always have been), and an overlapping number who have severe body dysmorphia related specifically to their primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (and there always have been).
The above described people are not "trans." They are not born with the inevitable need to medically alter their appearance to the opposite sex (or to a more androgenous look by muting sexed characteristics) in order to ever have any semblance of happiness. That is a cruel lie.
Instead, people with distress over their lot in life as a man/woman/boy/girl, or who truly wish they were the opposite sex and think themselves much better suited to it, or with severe body dysmorphia over sexed characteristics can (and in the past usually did) find ways to get over the negative feelings associated with being disappointed in their bodies' sexual characteristics. If there was no medical transition, all or mostly all of them would ultimately learn to accept their bodies. And if medical transition was not seen as inevitable, most still would learn to accept their bodies, although a few might decide to transition, and some of those would be happy with the choice - while others would not be happy with the choice (as all of the above comments indicate the complexity of these choices and the difficulty living with them).
One thing I would like to research and wish others would look into as well, is how many of these girls were/are on pharmaceuticals that directly affect their hormones. What is little discussed due to all the affirmation and push to destigmatize diagnoses is that SSRIs have long documented side effects of anhedonia and sexual dysfunction. The blunting of emotions and embodied sensation of sexual attraction or feeling is the ABSOLUTE WORST thing one can do to a young body transitioning into and through puberty - due to the fact that these feelings help to define one's reality, even if they are difficult.
I suspect that the majority of these troubled teens ARE on some sort of SSRI, if not some cocktail of meds. Because this has been the protocol for managing the difficult realities of teen girls in particular since the 80's.
And yet, just like the GAC medicalization route there has been this reckless promotion of the protocol with more evidence of harm than of help. Strong pharmaceuticals that were never tested on children have been handed out like candy to adolescents since the 80's. And in spite of these drugs causing suicides in teens - black box warning on all SSRIs says they can increase suicidal ideation and aggression in adolescents - Doctors continue to describe them. And not only that, since these drugs have NOT been working and making children less resilient or able to cope with their emotions or reality in general - the medical system has increased the intensity of treatment. Instead of any self-reflection into - whether medical pharmaceutical intervention was actually HARMING children - they continue to drive not just down a ditch but further full speed down a cliff.
I am not sure why "nobody has a gender identity or even a gender unless it is the same thing as sex" isn't the logical realization from all this nonsense. It is really identical to evangelical "soul" talk or nonsensical religious formulations like "having a personal relationship with Jesus" in its confusion of introspection with empirical etiological account.
Thanks for your revealing posts. It's such a contrast between the confused, angsty incoherence you show here, and the smug trans ally or activist with all the lines you might come across elsewhere on Reddit. For those latter it's the tidiest medical/distress born in the wrong body thing that they can muster up to argue with, but when you see the confused masses, self-reinforcing in such nonsense, you realise not only are you being gaslit by the activist, ally, but that they don't actually care about the distressed person.
As an aside, your Notes appeared without warnings for me today.
Body Dysmorphia and Gender Dysphoria are just fancy ways of saying - embodied Self-hate/mental self-loathing. We as a society do not want to FACE the truth of the incredible misogyny/hatred of women and girls that is constantly directed at them which they end up internalizing and taking it out on their bodies. This body hate started out with excessive dieting in the 70's, then morphed into anorexia and bulimia, and self-harm. And now this self-harm has become monetized as GAC.
The pattern is so incredibly clear - if one has paid any attention at all to the patterns of behavior of the most troubled teen girls in society. Who ironically, are often the most financially and potentially blessed - socioeconomically. Again all the negative and misogynistic messaging that caused their grandmothers to take "mother's little helpers" which was amphetamines to lose weight, or for their mother's to starve themself, or their older sisters to cut themselves up - has been intensified through social media and living their life via screens where the bully culture is alive and well.
I see the way out - as social and creative. We as a society have to break our addiction to the money we get from teaching girls and women that they are not enough, that they are not lovable or attractive unless they make never-ending changes to themselves in order to MAYBE be worthy of love or connection. We need to teach our girls and model as women - that peace/happiness is not something you buy or do to yourself.
Egads. When one reads the actual thread it is shocking just how desperate for reassurance the ftms are and how quickly assuaged their concerns are. Lack of critical thinking skills indeed!!
this exchange was about whether simply reading the T consent forms for 20 minutes then signing them and getting T might nit sufficiently weed out those people who might not actually “be” trans:
„ahhh okay. i guess that makes sense that consenting to testosterone==trans man…
i guess i thought for an ‘official gender dysphoria’ diagnosis they would want to actually talk to me more lol. rather than take my acceptance of taking T as proof enough. but when you put it like that, it makes much more sense. thanks”
Well then, asked and answered! Now hit me with that T, baby!
I'm always curious about what they mean when they talk about "feeling gender" and how much effort goes into distinguish gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia. I always keep in mind the fact that writing online like they do and like I'm doing right now means filtering oneself because you know that this might be read by others. So maybe they do see that these two are intertwined but they don't want to allow their minds to pull at that particular thread. I'm sure many of them have wondered, wait, what does it mean to transition for the right reasons? Who decides what the right reasons are?
I always enjoy Eliza’s analyses. In 2021, I desisted from a ~5 year “non-binary” identity, but I still experience “gender dysphoria” or body dysmorphia, however, when it comes to confusing these two things, there are a couple of important aspect to consider for FtM, or whatever females who claim trans identities want to call themselves.
First, I want to say this is probably not news to Eliza, but I really feel this is relevant for other readers. We have to acknowledge the effect of media and culture constantly telling girls and women that being female carries the expectation of being sexualized or scrutinized for being imperfect in any way. Obviously, this would cause women and girls who don’t want to be perfect princesses to feel like they must be the ones who are wrong, not the sexist media and cultural messages.
Next, it’s important to distinguish between ROGD and persistent “gender dysphoria” which presents at an early age, and does not resolve after puberty. I don’t want to make this comment an essay in itself, so I won’t try to explain my understanding of all the differences here. However, some key differences are that ROGD can be easily explained by body dysmorphia IF the female claiming the trans identity is 1) straight, and 2) is interested in having a slim androgynous body but IS NOT interested especially in having male reproductive function, such as the case of having “autoandrophilia”. Obviously it is not possible for females to achieve male reproductive function even with gender surgery, but anyway…
Much of the gender critical sphere can recognize that males who claim gender identities can have a fetish known as “autogynephilia”, but not much is mentioned about autoandrophilia in females. Perhaps because some wish to conserve the illusion of female purity/naivety/shallowness/stupidity regarding emotions, attraction, and sex. I’ve seen all kinds of takes from gender criticals.
However, I am not necessarily validating gender dysphoria or ROGD as a good reason to affirm or transition. I am stating that aap is a fetish, just like agp, and that it is a factor for some “FtMs”.
Where does a girl or woman acquire such a niche fetish? Eliza made a post or two which explores this. Check the profile pics of these FtM internet users on various websites (reddit may not be the most indicative, but tumblr, discord, etc will neatly prove the point). The are obsessed with anime or online cultures revolving around fantasy and fiction. They read, write, and draw cartoon characters 24/7 and “identify” with them because they don’t leave their houses.
How can they identify with females characters when 99% of entertainment is deeply misogynistic and teaches women to self-censor? How can they identify with their own natural bodies if they never use them to walk in the fresh air, train them, and test them? How can we expect these girls and women to do anything but sit at home, ruminating about their feelings when society keeps separating humans from each other using things like the covid lockdowns, work-from-home, grocery delivery, and other forms of increased isolation?
These things are presented as “convenient solutions” to increase comfort and safety. And while some are able to maintain a precarious balance of personal realization, physical and social fitness, and purchasing certain “conveniences” or working from home, others cannot balance these things. And the focus on buying comfort is whittling away with the resilience of young people. They don’t need therapy or mood-altering drugs; they need to accept that in-person human interaction is necessary and pushing their bodies and willpower to accomplish things for themselves and their loved ones are what brings peace to the mind and body.
Anyway that’s my 2 cents as to the “social contagion”.
Incredibly sad. This is one of those areas that the media won't even TOUCH-It's not a matter of difference of perspectives. They literally deny that these problems exist. "Nothing is happening... and it's good that it fucking is"
I always wonder if you're ever quoting my own daughter who went from pansexual to lesbian to gay man -- 6th grade, 8th grade, 10th grade respectively. Now she's "queer/nonbinary" which I pray is her cunning way to back slowly away from medicalizing as she's perched on the precipice of college and adulthood. She is not autistic or body dysmorphic or dysphoric and never has been. She's simply enamored of the scene and wants in. Pretty certain she's straight too but it would be fine if she weren't. It's the bullshit I can't bear. The mental gymnastics of these kids reminds me of me at 16/17 convincing myself that the boy who ignored me and never returned my calls was actually in love with me. Now at 54 I'm white knuckling life until my daughter's prefrontal cortex develops. It's a shitty and wild ride and I hate it.
This might sound odd, but it looks to me like the heart of the problem is a lack of critical thinking skills.
Many of us know that the mind can play weird tricks on us. I mean, we dream and, at the time of the dream, it feels real. And then we wake up, and understand that none of it was real, because the dream doesn't integrate with objective reality.
We check objective reality all the time.
SIDENOTE: I hate that I have to do this but, yes, I understand we can never be entirely sure of our own perception of objective reality. We don't have to be; we assess our certainty by comparing notes with others and taking multiple independent measurements. We do this all the time, and certainty is useful, even when it's not 100%.
Anyway... Many of us understand that if feelings or beliefs don't concord with reality, they're probably wrong. These trans people seem to have got it into their heads that everything they experience MUST BE indicative of some objective truth, even when it negates some other objective truth.
That's a basic lack of critical thinking skills. How did this happen?
Each of us has a voice in our heads - our thought process. This is not the schizophrenic voice. This is the normal voice we listen to internally.
This internal voice is the key to trans and other cult delusional states. When that "still small voice" has the trans belief, it's going to be impossible, or at least extremely difficult, to change that internal notion. This is the reason I completely oppose the use of pronouns or the trans name when a person has convinced himself that he is the other sex. At that moment, the internal voice is on the brink - if the parent or teacher affirms, the voice can be tipped into the delusional state of trans.
It's mind-blowing that this person is so confused that she'd say "So if we take down all of the arbitrary socially constructed ideas of gender, what's left?" and "biological sex" never crosses her mind. That is literally the only thing left. What have we done to these kids? How will they be handling life 20 years from now??
There must be a special place in Hell reserved for the inventors of "gender identity". Or there should be.
I am bothered by this quote: "I think that it’s weird to say [transition]'s a social thing considering trans ppl have always existed and will continue to exist." This is something people seem to take for granted, and they try to "trans" historical figures to prove the point, but there were no "trans" people until medical transition became a thing, starting with the first experiments in Germany in the 1930's.
If there was no way to medically transition, there would be people who are unhappy with their lot in life as a male or a female (as there always have been), and there would be a smaller number who are convinced they really should have been born the opposite sex (as their always have been), and an overlapping number who have severe body dysmorphia related specifically to their primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (and there always have been).
The above described people are not "trans." They are not born with the inevitable need to medically alter their appearance to the opposite sex (or to a more androgenous look by muting sexed characteristics) in order to ever have any semblance of happiness. That is a cruel lie.
Instead, people with distress over their lot in life as a man/woman/boy/girl, or who truly wish they were the opposite sex and think themselves much better suited to it, or with severe body dysmorphia over sexed characteristics can (and in the past usually did) find ways to get over the negative feelings associated with being disappointed in their bodies' sexual characteristics. If there was no medical transition, all or mostly all of them would ultimately learn to accept their bodies. And if medical transition was not seen as inevitable, most still would learn to accept their bodies, although a few might decide to transition, and some of those would be happy with the choice - while others would not be happy with the choice (as all of the above comments indicate the complexity of these choices and the difficulty living with them).
One thing I would like to research and wish others would look into as well, is how many of these girls were/are on pharmaceuticals that directly affect their hormones. What is little discussed due to all the affirmation and push to destigmatize diagnoses is that SSRIs have long documented side effects of anhedonia and sexual dysfunction. The blunting of emotions and embodied sensation of sexual attraction or feeling is the ABSOLUTE WORST thing one can do to a young body transitioning into and through puberty - due to the fact that these feelings help to define one's reality, even if they are difficult.
I suspect that the majority of these troubled teens ARE on some sort of SSRI, if not some cocktail of meds. Because this has been the protocol for managing the difficult realities of teen girls in particular since the 80's.
And yet, just like the GAC medicalization route there has been this reckless promotion of the protocol with more evidence of harm than of help. Strong pharmaceuticals that were never tested on children have been handed out like candy to adolescents since the 80's. And in spite of these drugs causing suicides in teens - black box warning on all SSRIs says they can increase suicidal ideation and aggression in adolescents - Doctors continue to describe them. And not only that, since these drugs have NOT been working and making children less resilient or able to cope with their emotions or reality in general - the medical system has increased the intensity of treatment. Instead of any self-reflection into - whether medical pharmaceutical intervention was actually HARMING children - they continue to drive not just down a ditch but further full speed down a cliff.
I am not sure why "nobody has a gender identity or even a gender unless it is the same thing as sex" isn't the logical realization from all this nonsense. It is really identical to evangelical "soul" talk or nonsensical religious formulations like "having a personal relationship with Jesus" in its confusion of introspection with empirical etiological account.
Thanks for your revealing posts. It's such a contrast between the confused, angsty incoherence you show here, and the smug trans ally or activist with all the lines you might come across elsewhere on Reddit. For those latter it's the tidiest medical/distress born in the wrong body thing that they can muster up to argue with, but when you see the confused masses, self-reinforcing in such nonsense, you realise not only are you being gaslit by the activist, ally, but that they don't actually care about the distressed person.
As an aside, your Notes appeared without warnings for me today.
Body Dysmorphia and Gender Dysphoria are just fancy ways of saying - embodied Self-hate/mental self-loathing. We as a society do not want to FACE the truth of the incredible misogyny/hatred of women and girls that is constantly directed at them which they end up internalizing and taking it out on their bodies. This body hate started out with excessive dieting in the 70's, then morphed into anorexia and bulimia, and self-harm. And now this self-harm has become monetized as GAC.
The pattern is so incredibly clear - if one has paid any attention at all to the patterns of behavior of the most troubled teen girls in society. Who ironically, are often the most financially and potentially blessed - socioeconomically. Again all the negative and misogynistic messaging that caused their grandmothers to take "mother's little helpers" which was amphetamines to lose weight, or for their mother's to starve themself, or their older sisters to cut themselves up - has been intensified through social media and living their life via screens where the bully culture is alive and well.
I see the way out - as social and creative. We as a society have to break our addiction to the money we get from teaching girls and women that they are not enough, that they are not lovable or attractive unless they make never-ending changes to themselves in order to MAYBE be worthy of love or connection. We need to teach our girls and model as women - that peace/happiness is not something you buy or do to yourself.
Egads. When one reads the actual thread it is shocking just how desperate for reassurance the ftms are and how quickly assuaged their concerns are. Lack of critical thinking skills indeed!!
this exchange was about whether simply reading the T consent forms for 20 minutes then signing them and getting T might nit sufficiently weed out those people who might not actually “be” trans:
„ahhh okay. i guess that makes sense that consenting to testosterone==trans man…
i guess i thought for an ‘official gender dysphoria’ diagnosis they would want to actually talk to me more lol. rather than take my acceptance of taking T as proof enough. but when you put it like that, it makes much more sense. thanks”
Well then, asked and answered! Now hit me with that T, baby!
I'm always curious about what they mean when they talk about "feeling gender" and how much effort goes into distinguish gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia. I always keep in mind the fact that writing online like they do and like I'm doing right now means filtering oneself because you know that this might be read by others. So maybe they do see that these two are intertwined but they don't want to allow their minds to pull at that particular thread. I'm sure many of them have wondered, wait, what does it mean to transition for the right reasons? Who decides what the right reasons are?
I always enjoy Eliza’s analyses. In 2021, I desisted from a ~5 year “non-binary” identity, but I still experience “gender dysphoria” or body dysmorphia, however, when it comes to confusing these two things, there are a couple of important aspect to consider for FtM, or whatever females who claim trans identities want to call themselves.
First, I want to say this is probably not news to Eliza, but I really feel this is relevant for other readers. We have to acknowledge the effect of media and culture constantly telling girls and women that being female carries the expectation of being sexualized or scrutinized for being imperfect in any way. Obviously, this would cause women and girls who don’t want to be perfect princesses to feel like they must be the ones who are wrong, not the sexist media and cultural messages.
Next, it’s important to distinguish between ROGD and persistent “gender dysphoria” which presents at an early age, and does not resolve after puberty. I don’t want to make this comment an essay in itself, so I won’t try to explain my understanding of all the differences here. However, some key differences are that ROGD can be easily explained by body dysmorphia IF the female claiming the trans identity is 1) straight, and 2) is interested in having a slim androgynous body but IS NOT interested especially in having male reproductive function, such as the case of having “autoandrophilia”. Obviously it is not possible for females to achieve male reproductive function even with gender surgery, but anyway…
Much of the gender critical sphere can recognize that males who claim gender identities can have a fetish known as “autogynephilia”, but not much is mentioned about autoandrophilia in females. Perhaps because some wish to conserve the illusion of female purity/naivety/shallowness/stupidity regarding emotions, attraction, and sex. I’ve seen all kinds of takes from gender criticals.
However, I am not necessarily validating gender dysphoria or ROGD as a good reason to affirm or transition. I am stating that aap is a fetish, just like agp, and that it is a factor for some “FtMs”.
Where does a girl or woman acquire such a niche fetish? Eliza made a post or two which explores this. Check the profile pics of these FtM internet users on various websites (reddit may not be the most indicative, but tumblr, discord, etc will neatly prove the point). The are obsessed with anime or online cultures revolving around fantasy and fiction. They read, write, and draw cartoon characters 24/7 and “identify” with them because they don’t leave their houses.
How can they identify with females characters when 99% of entertainment is deeply misogynistic and teaches women to self-censor? How can they identify with their own natural bodies if they never use them to walk in the fresh air, train them, and test them? How can we expect these girls and women to do anything but sit at home, ruminating about their feelings when society keeps separating humans from each other using things like the covid lockdowns, work-from-home, grocery delivery, and other forms of increased isolation?
These things are presented as “convenient solutions” to increase comfort and safety. And while some are able to maintain a precarious balance of personal realization, physical and social fitness, and purchasing certain “conveniences” or working from home, others cannot balance these things. And the focus on buying comfort is whittling away with the resilience of young people. They don’t need therapy or mood-altering drugs; they need to accept that in-person human interaction is necessary and pushing their bodies and willpower to accomplish things for themselves and their loved ones are what brings peace to the mind and body.
Anyway that’s my 2 cents as to the “social contagion”.
This just sounds total psychological disintegration to me.
Incredibly sad. This is one of those areas that the media won't even TOUCH-It's not a matter of difference of perspectives. They literally deny that these problems exist. "Nothing is happening... and it's good that it fucking is"
Thank you, this is as always very helpful. Not least as we have some very difficult conversations with our daughter coming up.