"So like I understand it because I experience gender feelings but I don't understand it because it's meaningless."

And other very compelling reasons to tamper with your endocrine system and remove healthy body parts

“I don’t get it?”

Every now and then, I stumble across a Reddit conversation that brings so many pieces together in one place: fears, insecurities, convoluted reasoning, misunderstandings, reassurance-seeking, and denial. This is such a thread: a conversation between a teenage girl who desisted from a trans identity and a community of FTMs [female-to-male transitioners]. It’s almost impossible to overstate how confused and misled members of these communities can be. Remember that this is the basis on which girls and women are seeking life-altering surgical and pharmaceutical interventions.

There are young women who say they think gender is “meaningless” but that didn’t stop them from getting mastectomies because of ‘gender’:

I'm autistic and nonbinary, though I can't speak for OP [the original poster].

I don't really understand gender but at the same time I do because I also experience it. I'm trans. I may not be a binary trans man, but I know that I don't feel like a woman or a man and I know that I feel more comfortable after transitioning. But what does it actually mean to feel like a specific gender?

If we know that what we do, how we act, and how we dress/look don't determine what gender we are, what does? If a woman can wear masculine clothes, have short hair, never wear makeup, be into sports, or whatever else is traditionally considered masculine and still be a woman, what does it actually mean to be a woman? The same for feminine men. There are cis women who voluntarily get top surgery and trans people who don't want surgery at all. So it's not what we want our bodies to look like that determines our gender either. There are cis people who use multiple pronouns, nonbinary people who use he/him or she/her pronouns, etc. so pronouns also don't necessarily determine our gender.

So if we take down all of the arbitrary socially constructed ideas of gender, what's left? What is gender? How do you know that you're a man? How do I know that I'm not? What does any of it mean?

I've been on T for almost two years and I got top surgery 4 months ago. I don't shave my facial or body hair, my voice is very deep, I usually dress more masculine (though I also love fem clothes), I prefer to be perceived as male, I want a male body, and I identify as gay, but I'm not a man and I am very confident in saying that. But how do I know?

It just doesn't feel right. That's all there is to it. It's a feeling.

So like I understand it because I experience gender feelings but I don't understand it because it's meaningless. I absolutely respect everyone in how they identify and I understand the importance of gender in other people's lives. But what does it mean?

Yes, surgeons should definitely be operating on these patients for these reasons.

If you’re not sure who you are, lead with your ‘embodiment goals’ (also known as the ‘tamper with your endocrine system first—ask questions later’ approach):

Just focus on what changes you want and go with that, with time things will start to get clearer.

… embodiment goals that can outlast transition, as in the case of the teenage desister in question, who no longer identities as trans but still wants ‘top surgery’ and a hysterectomy:

I’m definitely getting top surgery cause I want them completely gone

… I personally plan to get my uterus removed bc I don’t want bio kids and my period always caused me problems

There’s evidence of social contagion, accompanied by blanket denials:

[Commenter:] Did you used to think being trans is "cool"?

[Original poster:] Yeah, but just bc the trans community is full of awesome ppl, and most of my friends are trans and my partner is nonbinary

[Commenter:] Do you think it's all linked to social contaignmen [sic] ?

[Original poster:] Not really

Elsewhere, the original poster says that “I think that it’s weird to say it’s a social thing considering trans ppl have always existed and will continue to exist.”

Meanwhile, you can be any kind of man you want (but not any kind of woman you want, for some reason):

My stance is that it's all kinda meaningless and we can do whatever we want. I've thought about my gender a lot, obviously, and I've thought that if I am a man, I'm a different kind of man than the box that society made. We can make it mean whatever we want it to mean for ourselves.

There are entirely unconvincing attempts to disentangle gender dysphoria from body dysmorphia:

Gender Dysphoria is the distress a person experiences due to a mismatch between their gender identity—their personal sense of their own gender—and their sex assigned at birth.

Body Dysmorphia is a mental health condition in which you can't stop thinking about one or more perceived defects or flaws in your appearance — a flaw that appears minor or can't be seen by others. For example, eating disorders, thinking you’re fat no matter how skinny you get, afraid to go outside because you think people will judge you based on your appearance, performing self surgery or seeking plastic surgery procedures, trying ways to hide your flaws like with baggy clothing, makeup, etc., people asking for reassurance if they’re pretty and other stuff related to their appearances, they body check, weigh themselves almost everyday, some people don’t like taking photos, and other issues as well.

Even guys have Body Dysmorphia as well. Some of them think they’re too small, “puny,” and inadequately muscular. But in reality, many of these men are unusually muscular and large.

I absolutely hate that people get these 2 things confused!! They’re not the same!

I know because I have both. I’m FTM trans (Pre everything), and have eating disorders and Body Dysmorphia. I’m actually debating getting a couple of plastic surgery procedures as part of my transition.

What does it mean to ‘confuse’ these issues? Is suggesting that various ways of rejecting one’s body and the desire to exercise pathological control over one’s body (via restrictive eating or the desire for cosmetic surgeries) may share a single source ‘confusing’ the issues?

There’s the magical belief that cosmetic surgery will not help body dysmorphia but will totally help gender dysphoria:

You can absolutely have both [gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia]. Many trans people do. It's important to try and distinguish the two to ensure that any permanent steps you take in your transition are done for the right reasons. If the issue is body dysmorphia, surgery or hormones won't fix it.

Some young women who report experiencing both body dysmorphia and transgender ideation also think of themselves as having multiple personalities—and, by the way, they report undergoing unconventional surgeries and endocrine-disrupting regimens (… just like WPATH ordered):

we have been patients for a long time. so we have a repertoire with our doctors making it easier to do ‘less common’ hrt [hormone replacement therapy] or surgery tracks

Some women previously went the other direction in their rejection of their body and pursuit of cosmetic surgeries, like this 74-year-old woman who now desires a mastectomy but remains haunted by her mistake of getting breast implants in the past:

i am beginning to have fleeting thoughts about top surgery. but i am extremely cautious. 35 years ago i had breast implants placed and removed. not understanding that this was the wrong surgery for me until i did it.

There are young women who reassure themselves that they were evaluated when they actually went through an informed-consent process that involves no meaningful assessment whatsoever:

so, at least for informed consent, you CAN go in and get shit without researching. but in the end it’s the doctors discretion. perhaps i seemed confident enough? i was not presenting as a man if you’re wondering

There’s incredible casualness about testosterone and estrogen as interchangeable personal preferences, rather than the endocrine system as a delicate and inadequately understood whole:

I prefer having E in my body

There’s dissatisfaction with transition:

I… fantasized about being a dude, looking like an adult man and fulfilling those roles, but lately i’ve been getting bad dysphoria about how masc i’ve become and that i can’t go back to how i looked pre-T[estosterone], yet I also still don’t feel comfortable with femininity and my sense of gender and comfort with my sex characteristics seems to be fluid so blah

There’s evidence of escalating desire for interventions as one moves further into transition:

You sound a lot like how my friend spoke of gender. Originally, their gender goals were to be a bearded lady with boobs and frequently packing.

But they've also had top surgery since and now they go by all standard pronouns, including It/Its.

There’s extreme confusion about trans identity and the advisability of transition:

were there any warning signs? like maybe im gaslighting myself, maybe i don't wanna transition. really sorry if this sounds offensive, just very confused with my own gender.

But don’t worry: “Your gender can be ‘I don't know’ and it's still valid :)”

There’s fear of detransition that persists even when one insists transition is going well:

Like most trans folks, I still get scared I’ll someday “change my mind”, even though transitioning is the best thing I’ve ever done for myself. I was a shell of a person as a girl, no matter what kind of girl I tried to be, but every step I’ve taken to transition makes me enjoy life more. Did you feel that way?

There are very good reasons to have reconsidered transition in the first place:

I might also detrans in the future. The reason would be because medical transition and my other conditions could clash.

Eg. My mother had cancer and when I get it, I don't see myself being on HRT anymore. Or when my narcolepsy gets worse, or my autism or my chronic headaches that i had the last year.

Finally, there’s the attempt to redefine ‘detransition’ to make it less threatening (as in, it would be great if detransition didn’t imply “some kind of regret”):

It's even cool that this term [detransition] can refer to something positive !

[“positive” as in “not detransitioning”]