Good conversation here, although you seem more optimistic about the possibility of this ending than I am. I am continually lowering my expectations about the tide turning, possibly because my spouse is a true believer so I see how impossible it is to change the mind of your standard-issue tribal lefty. One comment by Boyce struck a nerve, though, around the 50 minute mark, where he seemed to be alluding to some kind of parallel between the love-bombing trans identifying kids get from the allies and the love-bombing he sees from the "GC moms," painting this group as shallow and/or manipulative. As one of those GC moms who have been in contact with detransitioners for a range of reasons, it's frustrating to have the much needed support we provide, the resources for legal advice/action, therapy, and self-care, and the forums for telling their stories, plus just being accepting, non-judgemental listeners, characterized so trivially in such a negative way. Admittedly, we prefer that they tell their stories because they are uniquely positioned to have tremendous impact, but I don't know any parent who doesn't put the welfare of these young people ahead of any benefit that might be gained — benefit not necessarily for our own children already on this dark path, but to protect the young ones that are being lined up for duty by activist teachers, ideological clinicians, and deceived parents. When detransitioners say that they want to keep any more young ones from suffering their fate, we help amplify their voices. This isn't a self-serving action where they're discarded once their usefulness has waned. I would be more inclined to ignore the slight if the parents fighting this didn't get a consistent stream of criticism about what we should have done differently or what we're doing wrong now. Navigating daily life with a child in this is exhausting enough yet we still manage to contribute significantly behind the scenes and we deserve better than this easy dismissal.
I think he's talking about a subset -- at least the sense I had -- where it crosses the line from support and building relationships into love-bombing and holding a new party line. I don't think he was talking about someone like you or so many of the parents out there.
I find myself thinking that this cult will start collapsing under its own weight. I've heard murmurs about the older cross-sex ideating generation resenting the 147 sets of pronouns and the non-binary varieties accompanying the new language. For those like my ex, Neddy, there were 2 sexes---he just wanted entree into the female sex. Getting that letter from the Stanford University Medical school surgeon was his holy grail. The Caitlin Jenner/Dylan Mulvaney contretemps demonstrate it. I've heard an encouraging trend reported in the NY Times, where a recent article highlighted a group of high school girls who shunned smart phones, calling themselves "The Luddites." That would be a healthy trend. In my work at Ute Heggen youtube channel, I find a new group of aggrieved women contacting me, in addition to the trans widows seeking my voice to speak for theirs: mothers of ROGD teens and young women. One of them told me her daughter (who still won't talk to her directly) has started identifying as non-binary after a few years of "transman." She regrets the double mastectomy from a few years ago. This mother and I spoke of hope growing, dim but patient.
Great conversation, as always. You should have a regular monthly slot - the 'Ben and Eliza hour'.
With regard to your last paragraph, I think that in certain quarters, the culture just doesn’t allow for many possibilities. The highest ideals are to be ‘non-judgmental’, which makes it very difficult to challenge, even in a minor way, someone's feelings and desires, however misguided.
Society has moved from a state of being very judgmental (stigma etc), through an intermediate stage of being compassionate and understanding, to a state where anything other than complete acceptance is seen as ‘judgmental’, and therefore bad. In fact, over the last few years, it has gone even further: now total acceptance of someone’s inner feelings is not only required, but also demands to be celebrated.
Consequently, there just isn’t the space for someone to even ask a gentle question, let alone ask someone to consider an alternative path.
Yes, the pressure to not appear "judgmental" is real. Back in the 1970s in the human potential movement world that was a mortal sin. Provided a great cover for predators and abusers and fake gurus. (I wasn't in a cult but my father was.)
Oh the number of people I knew who did EST! Not allowed to leave the room, use the bathroom, shaming and humiliation, the whole nine yards of coercive control! And that was considered "progressive"! The madness, the blindness...
My daughter had really heavy periods as a teen so Doc put her on birth control pills. She was always an exceptional writer. That thing you talk about where you couldn't write, find the right words, happened to her, she stayed on the pills for two years and after she stopped them that problem never went away. No one who believes in reproductive freedom wants to talk about "the long term hormonal birth control experiment" This is from 17 years ago, I wonder if anything has changed. Forward to 16:34 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1392952257
I don't know what its like in other countries but here in Canada there are almost no other choices in contraception. No one seems to be trying particularly hard to change that.
The supply of lab rats has grown exponentially these days, now that endocrinologists are playing games with the hormones of the confused and mentally ill.
Just had the experience of seeing a lovely young woman, about 24 years old, who I've known since she was 6, delicate, slender, radiant, present a dance about being a transman, complete with a man's suit. Despite the dance focusing on the gestures of her lovely feminine delicate hands, she got a standing ovation. I was appalled and disturbed. Afterwards I saw her mother who made a shrugging gesture like "what can you do?" and I said, "I'm so sorry," and she stared at me, "You're one of the few people who has said that to me. I don't know what to do, what to say about all this." I replied, "Of course, you don't want your daughter to stop speaking to you. You're surrounded by people celebrating this. I'm so sorry." We hugged. Later I sent her a link to Genspect, what else can I do to support her? The daughter later hugged me, I could see her wispy beard and hear her lowered voice--I was speechless, all I could say was, "Your lovely hands...." Another parent spoke approvingly about her--I said it was sad and tragic. She was appalled at me, "We need to support our young people! This is what they want!" I went ballistic: "Back in our day, when girls were anorexic, we didn't encourage them not to eat, we didn't tell them great, go ahead and destroy your body!" Her husband stared at me--it was like he'd never heard such a thing. So maybe comparing this to anorexia could be a powerful tool with which to talk to people who assume there's nothing wrong with trans ideology. But would this analogy help those actually in its grip? I'm not sure, as you write here. But as a bystander, wanting to help the parents of that beautiful daughter, maybe it could help them?
Thank you for this post Eliza. In the past, did you publish a more in-depth account of the personal journey you describe here? I would like to read it. Thanks again
What makes some people see it and some not.... I think it's a lack of embodiment-- in those who don't see the scandal. How else can you get past sexual nullification of children?
Great conversation in so many ways. I especially enjoyed the bit about birth control, and I agree that when sexuality is decoupled from reproduction, it’s difficult to find a basis for a sexual morality that acknowledges the differences between men and women that birth control ultimately fails to eradicate. I also appreciate very much your personal story with respect to disordered eating and how having had an experience of trying to control the body in an unhealthy way and then seeing someone else doing it and only then recognizing how harmful it is links up so well with recognition of the harms attendant to gender-based self-transformation. Ultimately heavy handed methods of controlling the body to express emotional distress are all harmful, whether physically, emotionally, or (usually) both. I also recently read the Favale book and while I’m not Catholic (yet!), I found a lot of her thoughts to be enlightening.
"Maybe you really wanted to be born in the opposite sex. Maybe you really can't figure out how to fit into the world." And maybe patriarchy is harmful and we should find a way to challenge it. I'm also interested in how people express distress and I work in the mental health field. I agree that being "kind" seems more like avoidance than compassion much of the time.
One thing I've noticed in my work is that when harm–even unintentional harm–is not acknowledged, people will cling to any diagnosis or identity that feels like an acknowledgement of their pain. Since patriarchy is defined by power and domination, the more patriarchal a system (government, family, medical), the less likely they are to admit harm. In the U.S., our patriarchy boasts "freedom of choice" so our systems churn out endless diagnoses and identities for us to "choose" from so we feel "free" and don't question the systems that caused our distress in the first place.
The movie "Repulsion", by (I know, problematic) Roman Polanski, captured the horror of a young woman beginning to realize she is regarded by the men around her as prey.
Good conversation here, although you seem more optimistic about the possibility of this ending than I am. I am continually lowering my expectations about the tide turning, possibly because my spouse is a true believer so I see how impossible it is to change the mind of your standard-issue tribal lefty. One comment by Boyce struck a nerve, though, around the 50 minute mark, where he seemed to be alluding to some kind of parallel between the love-bombing trans identifying kids get from the allies and the love-bombing he sees from the "GC moms," painting this group as shallow and/or manipulative. As one of those GC moms who have been in contact with detransitioners for a range of reasons, it's frustrating to have the much needed support we provide, the resources for legal advice/action, therapy, and self-care, and the forums for telling their stories, plus just being accepting, non-judgemental listeners, characterized so trivially in such a negative way. Admittedly, we prefer that they tell their stories because they are uniquely positioned to have tremendous impact, but I don't know any parent who doesn't put the welfare of these young people ahead of any benefit that might be gained — benefit not necessarily for our own children already on this dark path, but to protect the young ones that are being lined up for duty by activist teachers, ideological clinicians, and deceived parents. When detransitioners say that they want to keep any more young ones from suffering their fate, we help amplify their voices. This isn't a self-serving action where they're discarded once their usefulness has waned. I would be more inclined to ignore the slight if the parents fighting this didn't get a consistent stream of criticism about what we should have done differently or what we're doing wrong now. Navigating daily life with a child in this is exhausting enough yet we still manage to contribute significantly behind the scenes and we deserve better than this easy dismissal.
I think he's talking about a subset -- at least the sense I had -- where it crosses the line from support and building relationships into love-bombing and holding a new party line. I don't think he was talking about someone like you or so many of the parents out there.
I stopped listening to Boyce b/c I found him to be offputtingly superficial and dismissive at times.
I find myself thinking that this cult will start collapsing under its own weight. I've heard murmurs about the older cross-sex ideating generation resenting the 147 sets of pronouns and the non-binary varieties accompanying the new language. For those like my ex, Neddy, there were 2 sexes---he just wanted entree into the female sex. Getting that letter from the Stanford University Medical school surgeon was his holy grail. The Caitlin Jenner/Dylan Mulvaney contretemps demonstrate it. I've heard an encouraging trend reported in the NY Times, where a recent article highlighted a group of high school girls who shunned smart phones, calling themselves "The Luddites." That would be a healthy trend. In my work at Ute Heggen youtube channel, I find a new group of aggrieved women contacting me, in addition to the trans widows seeking my voice to speak for theirs: mothers of ROGD teens and young women. One of them told me her daughter (who still won't talk to her directly) has started identifying as non-binary after a few years of "transman." She regrets the double mastectomy from a few years ago. This mother and I spoke of hope growing, dim but patient.
Great conversation, as always. You should have a regular monthly slot - the 'Ben and Eliza hour'.
With regard to your last paragraph, I think that in certain quarters, the culture just doesn’t allow for many possibilities. The highest ideals are to be ‘non-judgmental’, which makes it very difficult to challenge, even in a minor way, someone's feelings and desires, however misguided.
Society has moved from a state of being very judgmental (stigma etc), through an intermediate stage of being compassionate and understanding, to a state where anything other than complete acceptance is seen as ‘judgmental’, and therefore bad. In fact, over the last few years, it has gone even further: now total acceptance of someone’s inner feelings is not only required, but also demands to be celebrated.
Consequently, there just isn’t the space for someone to even ask a gentle question, let alone ask someone to consider an alternative path.
Yes, the pressure to not appear "judgmental" is real. Back in the 1970s in the human potential movement world that was a mortal sin. Provided a great cover for predators and abusers and fake gurus. (I wasn't in a cult but my father was.)
Human potential groups were often cults too.
Oh the number of people I knew who did EST! Not allowed to leave the room, use the bathroom, shaming and humiliation, the whole nine yards of coercive control! And that was considered "progressive"! The madness, the blindness...
My daughter had really heavy periods as a teen so Doc put her on birth control pills. She was always an exceptional writer. That thing you talk about where you couldn't write, find the right words, happened to her, she stayed on the pills for two years and after she stopped them that problem never went away. No one who believes in reproductive freedom wants to talk about "the long term hormonal birth control experiment" This is from 17 years ago, I wonder if anything has changed. Forward to 16:34 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1392952257
I don't know what its like in other countries but here in Canada there are almost no other choices in contraception. No one seems to be trying particularly hard to change that.
The supply of lab rats has grown exponentially these days, now that endocrinologists are playing games with the hormones of the confused and mentally ill.
Just had the experience of seeing a lovely young woman, about 24 years old, who I've known since she was 6, delicate, slender, radiant, present a dance about being a transman, complete with a man's suit. Despite the dance focusing on the gestures of her lovely feminine delicate hands, she got a standing ovation. I was appalled and disturbed. Afterwards I saw her mother who made a shrugging gesture like "what can you do?" and I said, "I'm so sorry," and she stared at me, "You're one of the few people who has said that to me. I don't know what to do, what to say about all this." I replied, "Of course, you don't want your daughter to stop speaking to you. You're surrounded by people celebrating this. I'm so sorry." We hugged. Later I sent her a link to Genspect, what else can I do to support her? The daughter later hugged me, I could see her wispy beard and hear her lowered voice--I was speechless, all I could say was, "Your lovely hands...." Another parent spoke approvingly about her--I said it was sad and tragic. She was appalled at me, "We need to support our young people! This is what they want!" I went ballistic: "Back in our day, when girls were anorexic, we didn't encourage them not to eat, we didn't tell them great, go ahead and destroy your body!" Her husband stared at me--it was like he'd never heard such a thing. So maybe comparing this to anorexia could be a powerful tool with which to talk to people who assume there's nothing wrong with trans ideology. But would this analogy help those actually in its grip? I'm not sure, as you write here. But as a bystander, wanting to help the parents of that beautiful daughter, maybe it could help them?
Your last comment is perfect. Have you tried it on potential trans person?
Thank you for this post Eliza. In the past, did you publish a more in-depth account of the personal journey you describe here? I would like to read it. Thanks again
A bit here: https://elizamondegreen.substack.com/p/escape-routes
What makes some people see it and some not.... I think it's a lack of embodiment-- in those who don't see the scandal. How else can you get past sexual nullification of children?
I've been wondering that for years.
Great conversation in so many ways. I especially enjoyed the bit about birth control, and I agree that when sexuality is decoupled from reproduction, it’s difficult to find a basis for a sexual morality that acknowledges the differences between men and women that birth control ultimately fails to eradicate. I also appreciate very much your personal story with respect to disordered eating and how having had an experience of trying to control the body in an unhealthy way and then seeing someone else doing it and only then recognizing how harmful it is links up so well with recognition of the harms attendant to gender-based self-transformation. Ultimately heavy handed methods of controlling the body to express emotional distress are all harmful, whether physically, emotionally, or (usually) both. I also recently read the Favale book and while I’m not Catholic (yet!), I found a lot of her thoughts to be enlightening.
Very interesting calmversation.
"Maybe you really wanted to be born in the opposite sex. Maybe you really can't figure out how to fit into the world." And maybe patriarchy is harmful and we should find a way to challenge it. I'm also interested in how people express distress and I work in the mental health field. I agree that being "kind" seems more like avoidance than compassion much of the time.
One thing I've noticed in my work is that when harm–even unintentional harm–is not acknowledged, people will cling to any diagnosis or identity that feels like an acknowledgement of their pain. Since patriarchy is defined by power and domination, the more patriarchal a system (government, family, medical), the less likely they are to admit harm. In the U.S., our patriarchy boasts "freedom of choice" so our systems churn out endless diagnoses and identities for us to "choose" from so we feel "free" and don't question the systems that caused our distress in the first place.
The movie "Repulsion", by (I know, problematic) Roman Polanski, captured the horror of a young woman beginning to realize she is regarded by the men around her as prey.
Maybe you could gently suggest she volunteer at a shelter or TNR facility--they'll usually take volunteers 15 and up.