r/asktransgender asks: What do transphobes want us to do? Relocate? Detransition? Die? The answer is: keep your wacky, pernicious belief system to yourself. You’re free to hold any beliefs you want about sex and gender. But don’t enforce that belief system on the rest of us: don’t indoctrinate children into it. Don’t bend medicine to it. Don’t punish the people who refuse to submit to it.
They fixate on this, the idea that they are a community under siege, that there is An Enemy who wants them dead. It's a way to create a community: invent a dark, threatening force that demands them to band together in opposition. It's not a great way to create a community, it's not sustainable.
They are wrong. No one wants them dead. The rape and death threats come from them.
They are poisoning themselves, they are destroying their mental and physical health, at great profits for the pharma and surgical industry. Brakes are being applied to protect children from doing this. Adults can poison themselves on their own dime--insurance or public health care funds should not be spent on this, anymore than it should for blood-letting or trepanning.
No one is going to die because they have to pay for their laser hair removal. No one is going to die because they can't use their own sex category of bathroom.
Another reason this whole situation feels kinda like a "religion-like" thing is that a bunch of stuff atheists say about believers also fits here. You know, there's this awesome Daniel Dennet quote I keep in mind: "There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion."
Oh it was definitely a thing back in the heyday of the new atheism, but I wouldn't say we we're quite this hysterical. It's also pretty common from religious people of all stripes so I think it's just a facet of human nature to see their community as being under siege when they don't get their way.
There's a piece from the original Slate Star Codex blog with the thesis that the original internet New Atheism movement *became* the current Social Justice movement, including porting over many of it's undesirable qualities. The current stereotype of atheism as a vaguely alt-right hangout is a result of online atheism consisting of the folks who didn't make the jump to Wokeness.
It's titled "New Atheism: the Godlessness that Failed." Worth the read.
It is a very, very America-crntric view, to be honest. But it has more to do with the outspoken, blatantly political type of capital-A-Atheism found online as opposed to people who happen to not believe in God(s).
Gender ideology is dangerous and evil. Stop looking at it in terms of Right and Left. It's Right and Wrong, and we know what's Wrong. Our country is in the grip of a bizarre, anti-scientific, religious cult, which is changing the laws of the land, destroying the rights of women, and actively harming children. It’s doctrine is an accumulation of illogical and incoherent nonsense and is spreading because of a misguided view that it is a social justice issue, and a fearful refusal to challenge it, based upon the very real fear of social ostracism. Our major governmental, cultural, media, and business institutions have already fallen into its grip, and it’s not possible to function within schools, hospitals, prisons or multinationals without either professing belief in its pseudoreligious dogma or maintaining a cowardly silence.”
"There's simply no polite way to tell people they've dedicated their lives to an illusion."
It needs to be pointed out that that quote from Daniel Dennet (whoever he is) is merely an exercise in egotism and hubris UNLESS he has proof that the religion he is disparaging IS ACTUALLY AN ILLUSION. Now, I'm a religious person -- a religion which, I think, is more logical than Christianity or Islam or the other major religions. But even so, I would not presume to say such a thing to any person of faith, no matter what his or her religion, simply because I am not so egotistical and self-centered.
So, let's not pat this Dennet guy on the back prematurely.
Let me add that the trans issue is different from religion. Because we know what reality is, we can all say with confidence that a person cannot change his/her gender. But the fact remains that it is possible (if unlikely) that the idea of gender identity may ultimately be accepted by society, and that women with male bodies, and men with female bodies, may one day be considered REAL men and women. I certainly hope that doesn't happen. I personally doubt those ideas will become universally accepted, simply because the physical evidence of our bodies is just too powerful to be ignored.
"a world without trans & nonbinary people" is what they think we want, but I would be happy to live in "a world with trans & nonbinary people" WHO ARE NOT TELLING THE REST OF US WHAT TO DO AND WHAT TO BELIEVE.
I agree! Kind of like the world used to be about 20+ years ago. Kind of like some of the sane trans people want the world to be. What happens when something like this catches hold of large numbers of easily-led people, especially young people, and serves the interests of adults with nefarious hidden agendas (or not so hidden anymore).
So the question is, what is the agenda of trans people that makes them act this way? First, I think they want to normalize themselves. They know that there is a ridiculousness to a person of one sex who wants to be the opposite sex, and who dresses up as the opposite sex. I mean, that has been the stuff of comedy for centuries. If what makes us men and women is our gender identity, then that normalizes them -- and it also makes them REAL, as in REAL men and women instead of imposters.
Secondly, I think that trans people want to increase their numbers, which is why they are trying to spread their ideas to as many people as possible. They want to increase their numbers so that they won't be so alone in the world. In the same way that sexual offenders go after children because children can be easily manipulated, we have trans people going after children too. Trans people have learned (unfortunately because it is true) that if they "hook" a person early in life, that increases the chances that the person won't get "unhooked" and become a detransitioner.
I want to withhold judgement and say that it isn't so much "nefarious" as it is desperate and selfish. Selfish, of course, is almost as bad as nefarious.
True about trans people sadly, so maybe there's not much sanity there either. My comment though ought to have been more specific in saying nefarious refers to the non-transgender adults who profit from the transitioning (drugs and surgeries) of children and young adults, though it's not necessarily just the profit motive, but more sinister motives too. But I agree, selfishness is behind almost all of it, just that the profiteers, as well as some trans activists, are truly wicked people (imo anyway). They're clever sociopaths basically, snake oil salesmen (and women). What a mess!
Sorry. I thought you were talking about trans people. I pretty much agree about the medical parasites. As long as they are making money, surgeons will do anything. I remember when Michael Jackson was trying to turn himself into a white person, I wistfully thought, why won't one of his doctors tell him that he is already handsome? Jackson never revealed who he wanted to look like, but when he got the cleft in his chin, I decided it was Cary Grant.
But you are right. The doctors who remove girls' breasts -- don't any of them stop to wonder if a child has the emotional maturity to make such a decision, or if the child might regret it at age 25 or 30? I keep hoping that some of these detransitioners will sue their surgeons. That might put a stop to it.
I disagree. There is a huge part of trans which is queer, and queer means a push to queer society. This means attacking directly the innocence of children, simply because they want to pervertify all of society. This is similar to what Pritzker wants. He is a demented pervert, and he believes that everyone should be perverted like him
I don't know who you are responding to, but I wish you would not use the word "queer". I'm gay, and I consider "queer" to be a slur. If you are saying that gay people want to convert children, only pederasts do that. There are enough gay people in the world for every gay man to be satisfied (though that may not be true among gay women).
Well, I meant it as a slur. The queer thing is a complete affront to normal people, gay, straight, whatever. The queer ethos is to completely fuck over normal society. So, if you are offended, that is my intent. Normal people SHOULD be offended by queer operatives. You indicated that you thought that trans people should simply be left alone. That's not possible, because trans is part of queer, and their agenda is destruction of normal society.
Okay, I'll just keep reporting you for anti-gay bigotry until you are blocked.
Let me point out that people have a right to be gay, and to be trans also, without discrimination. Eliza's message is not that trans people don't have a right to exist, but just that their philosophy (transgender ideology) is harmful to society, and that they are demanding more rights than they have a right to.
Do you also hate blacks, Jews and women too? I feel sorry for you.
You need to 1) learn the English language to decode the writings of others and 2) study the Stoics to understand how lame and stupid those who claim "offense" are.
You know what this reminds me of? Extremist racist or misogynistic talk that "the white race is under threat" or "feminists hate men" -- very privileged, entitled groups believing that their privilege is under threat.
Second-wave feminists had a saying re men who were against women's equality: 'When you have been privileged equality feels like oppression.' Males are still whinging about this but now some of them are cross-dressing. Same old patriarchy. As a class, males seem to want to dominate women one way or another and when women resist and call them out some get angry and even violent and claim 'victimhood.' This iteration of would-be dominant males are treading that ancient path only this time some want to become us--to colonise and redefine womanhood in all of its variety and expression and replace it w/ their narrow, fetishistic, and mocking version of a woman. And women say 'NO.'
It's also a way of affirming their own importance as a minority group. It's probably far more insulting to be told that I don't care if I'm served in the local Oxfam charity shop by a tall gawky man with lipstick and nail varnish, dressed as a woman -- living in Brighton, as the gay capital of the UK, it's nothing special.
But as a woman I do object to finding him in what used to be women-only public toilets and changingd rooms in clothes stores: because he's a man. And that he's a woman when clearly he's not, and that I must therefore call him "she".
But the thing is the primary drivers of this latest iteration of women's oppression-- 'transgenderism' -- are heterosexual male cross-dressers w/ sexual fetishes/paraphilias, autogynephiles/transvestic fetishists. This movement is misogynist and homophobic to its core. These disordered men not only want to 'redefine' womanhood as old stereoypes but also promote hormonal/surgical mutilation of young males and females who are so-called 'gender' nonconforming in relation to those stereotypes --many of whom are or will grow up to be gay, lesbian or bisexual. These men are not victims, they are the perpetrators of mental and physical violence against women, young people, and LGBs all in service to their delusion of womanhood.
Yes. But men dressed as women also sometimes exist as individuals on the other side of a shop counter where there is something you want to buy: so what do you do? Leave the shop and go elsewhere?
When I know nothing about someone personally, beyond the fact they are working as a volunteer for a humanitarian charity I have supported for 65 years, I treat them like anyone else behind the counter. Politely.
I wasn't suggesting you do otherwise. I was setting forth why Western countries should not countenance them as part of women's sex-class in law or in life. And why their stereotypical version of womanhood is dangerous and has implications for young people who may not fit those stereotypes and for women in general who do not fit old stereoypes. We can be civil w/o bowing to their fantasy.
It is such a relief for me to read articles like this, as well as the comments. There is no one in my group of friends or other social contacts (as far as i know) who shares my deep concerns about how the trans movement is harming women and girls, especially. I can't understand how my liberal pals who are usually pro-science and studying issues carefully etc. just accept and promote the trans ideology without thinking about it. Hoping the extremism of this pendulum swing soon swings back.
I haven't yet been called a Nazi yet, but it's probably in my future as I am trying to speak out more. But I do find myself second-guessing whether to post things on Facebook, concerned re losing friends or getting mean responses. But mostly my friends and acquaintances just ignore it--no likes, no dislikes, no comments. It also boggles my mind that parents would not only allow, but encourage use of hormones in their children without facing up to the real side-effects and future health/life consequences. I know the big decider for some parents (maybe most) is they are told (and believe without questioning) that their child will commit suicide if they are not allowed to start hormones or have surgery etc.
I am astounded that any woman or LGB--Vichy feminists and LGBs--go along w/ the 'trans' lunacy or fail to speak out about it. But as you say, the 'trans' loons toss out those old insults but they only have the power that people give them.
Some of the quotes on the article seem to be living in genuine fear and it’s really sad. Other quotes seem to be playing with the ideas of violence and genocide almost like a game or part of a ritual with varying levels of buy-in.
It feels similar to the Evangelical Christian Persecution Complex, which, in the US, occasionally flares to really intense levels (the satanic panics of the 1980s, the evangelical backlash to marriage equality).
It’s like they are feeding off each other and they are more similar than either side would care to admit. Just a few years ago it was Mike Pence speaking of Christian persecution from the White House (and like now with Biden, Trump gave lip service to the narrative and people questioned how much he believed it or whether it was all just a calculated political move). In some corners of evangelical christianity, the fears of persecution are all encompassing. The difference is that there is more pushback on the claims of Christian persecution and it comes from both secular sources and other Christians. The Atlantic article is especially interesting because it tries to acknowledge there are some true Christian hate crimes happening in the US while also putting claims of persecution in context and discrediting the larger idea.
I find it genuinely shocking and upsetting that they think we want them dead.
I don't want anyone dead, or in camps, or even in a closet.
If they weren't invading womens' spaces, intimidating everybody and attempting to indoctrinate children, I would fight for their right to live as they wish.
This is not the first time that people adopted irrational beliefs that terrorized them or led them to mortify their bodies. We just notice this particular episode more because we are living inside it. We would be saying these same things about flagellant cults of the Middle Ages, court eunuchs of the Old World, elite hypochondrias, patent medicine fads, or witch trials. My thesis is history, focused on the English Civil War, when these phenomena were recent, happening, or about to happen. What ties them all together is great wealth in a society. Puritans are "blessed" with riches, so they ostentatiously wear very fine, plain fabrics and remove all the gilding from the church. Burghers are Catholic and wealth is a sin, so they pogrom the local Jews, then ostentatiously wear sackcloth and whip themselves. Cities burn, witches burn. I get asked a lot just why we are in this historical moment and the answer is that it's a First World problem.
My answer: if you are an adult and are happy with your life, keep living it. Dress how you want, present yourself how you want. However, you are still genetically and legally your birth sex, and this matters in situations of privacy, safety, and fairness. You can’t legally play in sports teams where people of your sex are not allowed (but you can play on co-ed or teams for your birth sex) or access spaces like locker rooms for the opposite sex where nudity is usual (although you can use the locker room for your birth sex, or a designated room for you if one exists, although businesses are not obligated to provide one). If you are medically transitioning, continue your current treatment if you are satisfied with it but you should be required to add true psychological treatment to help you determine if medical treatment is truly the direction you want to go. Anyone experiencing gender dysphoria but not yet medically transitioning should be required to have extensive (at least a year) psychological treatment to determine if medical treatment is right for them. Medical treatments should not be allowed for anyone under 21 (with grandfathering for those who have medical treatments already in progress, who wish to continue and whose parents/guardians agree). Of course the rights of people to dress and present themselves as they like should be protected by law - people should feel safe and not be discriminated against for jobs, housing, or other non-sex-based access. Most importantly, freedom of speech and debate on this topic must be respected. It must be recognized as a controversial belief system that schools can’t teach as fact, medical research must be open to honest analysis and criticism, and no one can be legally prosecuted or discriminated against for not believing it or expressing a belief in it.
I realize this is not what the community wants - they want to hear “kill! Erase!” so they have a justification for their rage. I actually think that publicly stating our beliefs goes a long way toward dismantling their arguments.
Disinformation Project researcher Dr Sanjana Hattotuwa previously told RNZ the outpouring of hate towards the trans community triggered by Keen-Minshull visit was beyond anything he has seen.
"They are being hounded, harassed and harmed and hated upon online - to a degree we've never studied before."
Hattotuwa said a major change had been the degree to which the "extraordinarily violent" content has been taken up and distributed by anti-vax and anti-mandate groups.
He said the vitriol directed at the trans community could be described as "genocidal".
"Police say violence or threatening behaviour towards people because of their sexual orientation, gender identity, race, faith, disability, and age is not acceptable."
Outside their own groups, only children could possibly think these "observations" about the cultural climate are anything but pulled out of a hat, because they simply want it to be the case that society wants trans people dead and gone. It's such embarrassing childish nonsense.
“We are basically the mushroom zombies from The Last Of Us. Human-like things that used to be people until they were infected, and now are grotesque dangerous creatures…”
Well, to be fair… This does kind of describe aspects of my teen son, but it’s hard to separate the “trans” from the “teen.”
Some of their “nightmare” scenarios aren’t far off. I *would* like people caught in this insanity to detransition — and get decent mental health support. Not quite genocide. What strikes me is this sense of a huge, cohesive, unified community, who will valiantly fight together to protect their long-standing and noble culture and history. I could be completely wrong, but I get the sense that the “community” is largely online and completely focused on seeking validation or mining the oppression depths, and that the only time they gather is for a misogynistic counter-protest. More delusion.
We do need to firmly draw lines again around speech, even horrible speech, and physical violence.
A hallmark of trans ideology is blurring -or queering - distinctions.
It's the only we can stop people looking at a situation which includes a fractured orbital bone and hurt feelings from rude words online and concluding the rude words is worse than the punch.
What I would like to see is (in no particular order):
a) a change to laws such that all gender-related medical and surgical treatments are only allowed based on consent of the patient *plus* two other mental healthcare professionals and a judge, with a minimum age of consent for the patient of 25;
b) a major review of how the psychiatric and judicial professions allowed physical treatment of transsexuals to operate for so long, with a view to finding proper psychiatric healthcare instead of mutilation, and;
c) societal acceptance of people wearing, and behaving as they like within appropriate, sex-based boundaries.
Of course, underpinning all this is the need for much better, both in terms of quality and availability, mental health care. Ultimately, the current situation is rooted in the West's poor provision of care for those with mental health problems.
What I want is for medical and scientific community to admit that they f@ed up in a major way and that medical transitioning is not the best course of treatment We don't delay hysterectomies for mentally ill young women - at this point everyone knows that it is just not a proper treatment. A judge has no business deciding on a medical treatment. I don't think that delaying harmful treatment until 25 is in people's best interests (although it is clearly much much better than offering it to those with immature minds). We don't delay or limit legally every snake oil treatment out there . People need to know that it is scientifically (not morally) wrong treatment and hence not what they need. If a young distressed person thinks that transitioning is life-saving, making it unavailable until 25 may or may not be helpful. People need to be told they have been sold a bill of (medical) goods.
They fixate on this, the idea that they are a community under siege, that there is An Enemy who wants them dead. It's a way to create a community: invent a dark, threatening force that demands them to band together in opposition. It's not a great way to create a community, it's not sustainable.
They are wrong. No one wants them dead. The rape and death threats come from them.
They are poisoning themselves, they are destroying their mental and physical health, at great profits for the pharma and surgical industry. Brakes are being applied to protect children from doing this. Adults can poison themselves on their own dime--insurance or public health care funds should not be spent on this, anymore than it should for blood-letting or trepanning.
No one is going to die because they have to pay for their laser hair removal. No one is going to die because they can't use their own sex category of bathroom.
They definitely have some very serious mental problems! Anyone feeling under such siege is by definition mentally disabled.
Another reason this whole situation feels kinda like a "religion-like" thing is that a bunch of stuff atheists say about believers also fits here. You know, there's this awesome Daniel Dennet quote I keep in mind: "There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion."
That's a great quote. Never heard it before.
I have never heard of atheists saying that ...that they are oppressed! That people want them to die or disappear.
Oh it was definitely a thing back in the heyday of the new atheism, but I wouldn't say we we're quite this hysterical. It's also pretty common from religious people of all stripes so I think it's just a facet of human nature to see their community as being under siege when they don't get their way.
There's a piece from the original Slate Star Codex blog with the thesis that the original internet New Atheism movement *became* the current Social Justice movement, including porting over many of it's undesirable qualities. The current stereotype of atheism as a vaguely alt-right hangout is a result of online atheism consisting of the folks who didn't make the jump to Wokeness.
It's titled "New Atheism: the Godlessness that Failed." Worth the read.
I never heard of the” New Atheism! Why would it be right wing?
Most people in Europe are atheists and it has nothing to do with politics.
It is a very, very America-crntric view, to be honest. But it has more to do with the outspoken, blatantly political type of capital-A-Atheism found online as opposed to people who happen to not believe in God(s).
Gender ideology is dangerous and evil. Stop looking at it in terms of Right and Left. It's Right and Wrong, and we know what's Wrong. Our country is in the grip of a bizarre, anti-scientific, religious cult, which is changing the laws of the land, destroying the rights of women, and actively harming children. It’s doctrine is an accumulation of illogical and incoherent nonsense and is spreading because of a misguided view that it is a social justice issue, and a fearful refusal to challenge it, based upon the very real fear of social ostracism. Our major governmental, cultural, media, and business institutions have already fallen into its grip, and it’s not possible to function within schools, hospitals, prisons or multinationals without either professing belief in its pseudoreligious dogma or maintaining a cowardly silence.”
"There's simply no polite way to tell people they've dedicated their lives to an illusion."
It needs to be pointed out that that quote from Daniel Dennet (whoever he is) is merely an exercise in egotism and hubris UNLESS he has proof that the religion he is disparaging IS ACTUALLY AN ILLUSION. Now, I'm a religious person -- a religion which, I think, is more logical than Christianity or Islam or the other major religions. But even so, I would not presume to say such a thing to any person of faith, no matter what his or her religion, simply because I am not so egotistical and self-centered.
So, let's not pat this Dennet guy on the back prematurely.
Let me add that the trans issue is different from religion. Because we know what reality is, we can all say with confidence that a person cannot change his/her gender. But the fact remains that it is possible (if unlikely) that the idea of gender identity may ultimately be accepted by society, and that women with male bodies, and men with female bodies, may one day be considered REAL men and women. I certainly hope that doesn't happen. I personally doubt those ideas will become universally accepted, simply because the physical evidence of our bodies is just too powerful to be ignored.
"a world without trans & nonbinary people" is what they think we want, but I would be happy to live in "a world with trans & nonbinary people" WHO ARE NOT TELLING THE REST OF US WHAT TO DO AND WHAT TO BELIEVE.
I agree! Kind of like the world used to be about 20+ years ago. Kind of like some of the sane trans people want the world to be. What happens when something like this catches hold of large numbers of easily-led people, especially young people, and serves the interests of adults with nefarious hidden agendas (or not so hidden anymore).
So the question is, what is the agenda of trans people that makes them act this way? First, I think they want to normalize themselves. They know that there is a ridiculousness to a person of one sex who wants to be the opposite sex, and who dresses up as the opposite sex. I mean, that has been the stuff of comedy for centuries. If what makes us men and women is our gender identity, then that normalizes them -- and it also makes them REAL, as in REAL men and women instead of imposters.
Secondly, I think that trans people want to increase their numbers, which is why they are trying to spread their ideas to as many people as possible. They want to increase their numbers so that they won't be so alone in the world. In the same way that sexual offenders go after children because children can be easily manipulated, we have trans people going after children too. Trans people have learned (unfortunately because it is true) that if they "hook" a person early in life, that increases the chances that the person won't get "unhooked" and become a detransitioner.
I want to withhold judgement and say that it isn't so much "nefarious" as it is desperate and selfish. Selfish, of course, is almost as bad as nefarious.
True about trans people sadly, so maybe there's not much sanity there either. My comment though ought to have been more specific in saying nefarious refers to the non-transgender adults who profit from the transitioning (drugs and surgeries) of children and young adults, though it's not necessarily just the profit motive, but more sinister motives too. But I agree, selfishness is behind almost all of it, just that the profiteers, as well as some trans activists, are truly wicked people (imo anyway). They're clever sociopaths basically, snake oil salesmen (and women). What a mess!
Sorry. I thought you were talking about trans people. I pretty much agree about the medical parasites. As long as they are making money, surgeons will do anything. I remember when Michael Jackson was trying to turn himself into a white person, I wistfully thought, why won't one of his doctors tell him that he is already handsome? Jackson never revealed who he wanted to look like, but when he got the cleft in his chin, I decided it was Cary Grant.
But you are right. The doctors who remove girls' breasts -- don't any of them stop to wonder if a child has the emotional maturity to make such a decision, or if the child might regret it at age 25 or 30? I keep hoping that some of these detransitioners will sue their surgeons. That might put a stop to it.
I disagree. There is a huge part of trans which is queer, and queer means a push to queer society. This means attacking directly the innocence of children, simply because they want to pervertify all of society. This is similar to what Pritzker wants. He is a demented pervert, and he believes that everyone should be perverted like him
I don't know who you are responding to, but I wish you would not use the word "queer". I'm gay, and I consider "queer" to be a slur. If you are saying that gay people want to convert children, only pederasts do that. There are enough gay people in the world for every gay man to be satisfied (though that may not be true among gay women).
Well, I meant it as a slur. The queer thing is a complete affront to normal people, gay, straight, whatever. The queer ethos is to completely fuck over normal society. So, if you are offended, that is my intent. Normal people SHOULD be offended by queer operatives. You indicated that you thought that trans people should simply be left alone. That's not possible, because trans is part of queer, and their agenda is destruction of normal society.
Okay, I'll just keep reporting you for anti-gay bigotry until you are blocked.
Let me point out that people have a right to be gay, and to be trans also, without discrimination. Eliza's message is not that trans people don't have a right to exist, but just that their philosophy (transgender ideology) is harmful to society, and that they are demanding more rights than they have a right to.
Do you also hate blacks, Jews and women too? I feel sorry for you.
You need to 1) learn the English language to decode the writings of others and 2) study the Stoics to understand how lame and stupid those who claim "offense" are.
Too late, my easily offended friend. I reported you for bullying and threatening me.
You know what this reminds me of? Extremist racist or misogynistic talk that "the white race is under threat" or "feminists hate men" -- very privileged, entitled groups believing that their privilege is under threat.
Very much reminiscent of 'white genocide' in particular.
Second-wave feminists had a saying re men who were against women's equality: 'When you have been privileged equality feels like oppression.' Males are still whinging about this but now some of them are cross-dressing. Same old patriarchy. As a class, males seem to want to dominate women one way or another and when women resist and call them out some get angry and even violent and claim 'victimhood.' This iteration of would-be dominant males are treading that ancient path only this time some want to become us--to colonise and redefine womanhood in all of its variety and expression and replace it w/ their narrow, fetishistic, and mocking version of a woman. And women say 'NO.'
Exactly. Same old patriarchy. And now, their aggrieved entitlement masquerades as "oppression".
It's also a way of affirming their own importance as a minority group. It's probably far more insulting to be told that I don't care if I'm served in the local Oxfam charity shop by a tall gawky man with lipstick and nail varnish, dressed as a woman -- living in Brighton, as the gay capital of the UK, it's nothing special.
But as a woman I do object to finding him in what used to be women-only public toilets and changingd rooms in clothes stores: because he's a man. And that he's a woman when clearly he's not, and that I must therefore call him "she".
This is "genocide"? Ridiculous.
But the thing is the primary drivers of this latest iteration of women's oppression-- 'transgenderism' -- are heterosexual male cross-dressers w/ sexual fetishes/paraphilias, autogynephiles/transvestic fetishists. This movement is misogynist and homophobic to its core. These disordered men not only want to 'redefine' womanhood as old stereoypes but also promote hormonal/surgical mutilation of young males and females who are so-called 'gender' nonconforming in relation to those stereotypes --many of whom are or will grow up to be gay, lesbian or bisexual. These men are not victims, they are the perpetrators of mental and physical violence against women, young people, and LGBs all in service to their delusion of womanhood.
Yes. But men dressed as women also sometimes exist as individuals on the other side of a shop counter where there is something you want to buy: so what do you do? Leave the shop and go elsewhere?
When I know nothing about someone personally, beyond the fact they are working as a volunteer for a humanitarian charity I have supported for 65 years, I treat them like anyone else behind the counter. Politely.
I wasn't suggesting you do otherwise. I was setting forth why Western countries should not countenance them as part of women's sex-class in law or in life. And why their stereotypical version of womanhood is dangerous and has implications for young people who may not fit those stereotypes and for women in general who do not fit old stereoypes. We can be civil w/o bowing to their fantasy.
I think it all goes back to a mental problem. Autism is very prevalent among trans people. And autistic people tend to be a little strange.
It is such a relief for me to read articles like this, as well as the comments. There is no one in my group of friends or other social contacts (as far as i know) who shares my deep concerns about how the trans movement is harming women and girls, especially. I can't understand how my liberal pals who are usually pro-science and studying issues carefully etc. just accept and promote the trans ideology without thinking about it. Hoping the extremism of this pendulum swing soon swings back.
I haven't yet been called a Nazi yet, but it's probably in my future as I am trying to speak out more. But I do find myself second-guessing whether to post things on Facebook, concerned re losing friends or getting mean responses. But mostly my friends and acquaintances just ignore it--no likes, no dislikes, no comments. It also boggles my mind that parents would not only allow, but encourage use of hormones in their children without facing up to the real side-effects and future health/life consequences. I know the big decider for some parents (maybe most) is they are told (and believe without questioning) that their child will commit suicide if they are not allowed to start hormones or have surgery etc.
I consider TERF a badge of honor.
I am astounded that any woman or LGB--Vichy feminists and LGBs--go along w/ the 'trans' lunacy or fail to speak out about it. But as you say, the 'trans' loons toss out those old insults but they only have the power that people give them.
Some of the quotes on the article seem to be living in genuine fear and it’s really sad. Other quotes seem to be playing with the ideas of violence and genocide almost like a game or part of a ritual with varying levels of buy-in.
It feels similar to the Evangelical Christian Persecution Complex, which, in the US, occasionally flares to really intense levels (the satanic panics of the 1980s, the evangelical backlash to marriage equality).
It’s like they are feeding off each other and they are more similar than either side would care to admit. Just a few years ago it was Mike Pence speaking of Christian persecution from the White House (and like now with Biden, Trump gave lip service to the narrative and people questioned how much he believed it or whether it was all just a calculated political move). In some corners of evangelical christianity, the fears of persecution are all encompassing. The difference is that there is more pushback on the claims of Christian persecution and it comes from both secular sources and other Christians. The Atlantic article is especially interesting because it tries to acknowledge there are some true Christian hate crimes happening in the US while also putting claims of persecution in context and discrediting the larger idea.
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/08/the-evangelical-persecution-complex/375506/
https://www.redletterchristians.org/the-white-evangelical-persecution-complex/
Another great article. Eliza’s writing is definitely worth paying for.
I find it genuinely shocking and upsetting that they think we want them dead.
I don't want anyone dead, or in camps, or even in a closet.
If they weren't invading womens' spaces, intimidating everybody and attempting to indoctrinate children, I would fight for their right to live as they wish.
This is not the first time that people adopted irrational beliefs that terrorized them or led them to mortify their bodies. We just notice this particular episode more because we are living inside it. We would be saying these same things about flagellant cults of the Middle Ages, court eunuchs of the Old World, elite hypochondrias, patent medicine fads, or witch trials. My thesis is history, focused on the English Civil War, when these phenomena were recent, happening, or about to happen. What ties them all together is great wealth in a society. Puritans are "blessed" with riches, so they ostentatiously wear very fine, plain fabrics and remove all the gilding from the church. Burghers are Catholic and wealth is a sin, so they pogrom the local Jews, then ostentatiously wear sackcloth and whip themselves. Cities burn, witches burn. I get asked a lot just why we are in this historical moment and the answer is that it's a First World problem.
My answer: if you are an adult and are happy with your life, keep living it. Dress how you want, present yourself how you want. However, you are still genetically and legally your birth sex, and this matters in situations of privacy, safety, and fairness. You can’t legally play in sports teams where people of your sex are not allowed (but you can play on co-ed or teams for your birth sex) or access spaces like locker rooms for the opposite sex where nudity is usual (although you can use the locker room for your birth sex, or a designated room for you if one exists, although businesses are not obligated to provide one). If you are medically transitioning, continue your current treatment if you are satisfied with it but you should be required to add true psychological treatment to help you determine if medical treatment is truly the direction you want to go. Anyone experiencing gender dysphoria but not yet medically transitioning should be required to have extensive (at least a year) psychological treatment to determine if medical treatment is right for them. Medical treatments should not be allowed for anyone under 21 (with grandfathering for those who have medical treatments already in progress, who wish to continue and whose parents/guardians agree). Of course the rights of people to dress and present themselves as they like should be protected by law - people should feel safe and not be discriminated against for jobs, housing, or other non-sex-based access. Most importantly, freedom of speech and debate on this topic must be respected. It must be recognized as a controversial belief system that schools can’t teach as fact, medical research must be open to honest analysis and criticism, and no one can be legally prosecuted or discriminated against for not believing it or expressing a belief in it.
I realize this is not what the community wants - they want to hear “kill! Erase!” so they have a justification for their rage. I actually think that publicly stating our beliefs goes a long way toward dismantling their arguments.
NZ media in on the phobia indoctrination: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/487640/police-urge-anyone-including-the-rainbow-community-to-report-threats-violence
Disinformation Project researcher Dr Sanjana Hattotuwa previously told RNZ the outpouring of hate towards the trans community triggered by Keen-Minshull visit was beyond anything he has seen.
"They are being hounded, harassed and harmed and hated upon online - to a degree we've never studied before."
Hattotuwa said a major change had been the degree to which the "extraordinarily violent" content has been taken up and distributed by anti-vax and anti-mandate groups.
He said the vitriol directed at the trans community could be described as "genocidal".
"Police say violence or threatening behaviour towards people because of their sexual orientation, gender identity, race, faith, disability, and age is not acceptable."
But apparently violence against women is a-ok!
You have hit the nail on the head. Violence against women is fine. This is a men’s movement against women.
Do the police know that many of the women who attend and stand up for women--and for Kellie-Jay--are lesbians?
This activists that are so violent need to be stopped.
Outside their own groups, only children could possibly think these "observations" about the cultural climate are anything but pulled out of a hat, because they simply want it to be the case that society wants trans people dead and gone. It's such embarrassing childish nonsense.
Childish is right. But it’s also mass paranoia , which points to mental derangement!
Jews went through the Holocaust, but have you seen us saying that everyone wants us dead?
African American don’t think that way , or certainly don’t post such nonsense.
The only conclusion is mass hysteria justifying such nonsense as “Day of Vengeance ! Total insanity!
“We are basically the mushroom zombies from The Last Of Us. Human-like things that used to be people until they were infected, and now are grotesque dangerous creatures…”
Well, to be fair… This does kind of describe aspects of my teen son, but it’s hard to separate the “trans” from the “teen.”
Some of their “nightmare” scenarios aren’t far off. I *would* like people caught in this insanity to detransition — and get decent mental health support. Not quite genocide. What strikes me is this sense of a huge, cohesive, unified community, who will valiantly fight together to protect their long-standing and noble culture and history. I could be completely wrong, but I get the sense that the “community” is largely online and completely focused on seeking validation or mining the oppression depths, and that the only time they gather is for a misogynistic counter-protest. More delusion.
We do need to firmly draw lines again around speech, even horrible speech, and physical violence.
A hallmark of trans ideology is blurring -or queering - distinctions.
It's the only we can stop people looking at a situation which includes a fractured orbital bone and hurt feelings from rude words online and concluding the rude words is worse than the punch.
it's called "pre-traumatic stress syndrome". i'd also say "DARVO" fits the situation.
What I would like to see is (in no particular order):
a) a change to laws such that all gender-related medical and surgical treatments are only allowed based on consent of the patient *plus* two other mental healthcare professionals and a judge, with a minimum age of consent for the patient of 25;
b) a major review of how the psychiatric and judicial professions allowed physical treatment of transsexuals to operate for so long, with a view to finding proper psychiatric healthcare instead of mutilation, and;
c) societal acceptance of people wearing, and behaving as they like within appropriate, sex-based boundaries.
Of course, underpinning all this is the need for much better, both in terms of quality and availability, mental health care. Ultimately, the current situation is rooted in the West's poor provision of care for those with mental health problems.
What I want is for medical and scientific community to admit that they f@ed up in a major way and that medical transitioning is not the best course of treatment We don't delay hysterectomies for mentally ill young women - at this point everyone knows that it is just not a proper treatment. A judge has no business deciding on a medical treatment. I don't think that delaying harmful treatment until 25 is in people's best interests (although it is clearly much much better than offering it to those with immature minds). We don't delay or limit legally every snake oil treatment out there . People need to know that it is scientifically (not morally) wrong treatment and hence not what they need. If a young distressed person thinks that transitioning is life-saving, making it unavailable until 25 may or may not be helpful. People need to be told they have been sold a bill of (medical) goods.
Medicine is shot-through w/ examples of fads and snake oil remedies--the history of medicine teaches us that. We are allowing 'gay conversion' and 'sex lobotomy' in service to the invented 'gender' and 'gender identity' and allowing the clap-trap that people can change their sex--it is lunacy itself. But medical 'professionals' will never answer for it nor will any who support it. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/backlash-over-lobotomy-nobel/#:~:text=Thirty%20years%20after%20doctors%20stopped,given%20to%20its%20inventor%20revoked.