r/asktransgender asks: What do transphobes want us to do? Relocate? Detransition? Die? The answer is: keep your wacky, pernicious belief system to yourself. You’re free to hold any beliefs you want about sex and gender. But don’t enforce that belief system on the rest of us: don’t indoctrinate children into it. Don’t bend medicine to it. Don’t punish the people who refuse to submit to it.
They fixate on this, the idea that they are a community under siege, that there is An Enemy who wants them dead. It's a way to create a community: invent a dark, threatening force that demands them to band together in opposition. It's not a great way to create a community, it's not sustainable.
They are wrong. No one wants them dead. The rape and death threats come from them.
They are poisoning themselves, they are destroying their mental and physical health, at great profits for the pharma and surgical industry. Brakes are being applied to protect children from doing this. Adults can poison themselves on their own dime--insurance or public health care funds should not be spent on this, anymore than it should for blood-letting or trepanning.
No one is going to die because they have to pay for their laser hair removal. No one is going to die because they can't use their own sex category of bathroom.
Another reason this whole situation feels kinda like a "religion-like" thing is that a bunch of stuff atheists say about believers also fits here. You know, there's this awesome Daniel Dennet quote I keep in mind: "There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion."
Apr 12, 2023·edited Apr 12, 2023Liked by Eliza Mondegreen
"a world without trans & nonbinary people" is what they think we want, but I would be happy to live in "a world with trans & nonbinary people" WHO ARE NOT TELLING THE REST OF US WHAT TO DO AND WHAT TO BELIEVE.
You know what this reminds me of? Extremist racist or misogynistic talk that "the white race is under threat" or "feminists hate men" -- very privileged, entitled groups believing that their privilege is under threat.
It is such a relief for me to read articles like this, as well as the comments. There is no one in my group of friends or other social contacts (as far as i know) who shares my deep concerns about how the trans movement is harming women and girls, especially. I can't understand how my liberal pals who are usually pro-science and studying issues carefully etc. just accept and promote the trans ideology without thinking about it. Hoping the extremism of this pendulum swing soon swings back.
Some of the quotes on the article seem to be living in genuine fear and it’s really sad. Other quotes seem to be playing with the ideas of violence and genocide almost like a game or part of a ritual with varying levels of buy-in.
It feels similar to the Evangelical Christian Persecution Complex, which, in the US, occasionally flares to really intense levels (the satanic panics of the 1980s, the evangelical backlash to marriage equality).
It’s like they are feeding off each other and they are more similar than either side would care to admit. Just a few years ago it was Mike Pence speaking of Christian persecution from the White House (and like now with Biden, Trump gave lip service to the narrative and people questioned how much he believed it or whether it was all just a calculated political move). In some corners of evangelical christianity, the fears of persecution are all encompassing. The difference is that there is more pushback on the claims of Christian persecution and it comes from both secular sources and other Christians. The Atlantic article is especially interesting because it tries to acknowledge there are some true Christian hate crimes happening in the US while also putting claims of persecution in context and discrediting the larger idea.
I find it genuinely shocking and upsetting that they think we want them dead.
I don't want anyone dead, or in camps, or even in a closet.
If they weren't invading womens' spaces, intimidating everybody and attempting to indoctrinate children, I would fight for their right to live as they wish.
This is not the first time that people adopted irrational beliefs that terrorized them or led them to mortify their bodies. We just notice this particular episode more because we are living inside it. We would be saying these same things about flagellant cults of the Middle Ages, court eunuchs of the Old World, elite hypochondrias, patent medicine fads, or witch trials. My thesis is history, focused on the English Civil War, when these phenomena were recent, happening, or about to happen. What ties them all together is great wealth in a society. Puritans are "blessed" with riches, so they ostentatiously wear very fine, plain fabrics and remove all the gilding from the church. Burghers are Catholic and wealth is a sin, so they pogrom the local Jews, then ostentatiously wear sackcloth and whip themselves. Cities burn, witches burn. I get asked a lot just why we are in this historical moment and the answer is that it's a First World problem.
My answer: if you are an adult and are happy with your life, keep living it. Dress how you want, present yourself how you want. However, you are still genetically and legally your birth sex, and this matters in situations of privacy, safety, and fairness. You can’t legally play in sports teams where people of your sex are not allowed (but you can play on co-ed or teams for your birth sex) or access spaces like locker rooms for the opposite sex where nudity is usual (although you can use the locker room for your birth sex, or a designated room for you if one exists, although businesses are not obligated to provide one). If you are medically transitioning, continue your current treatment if you are satisfied with it but you should be required to add true psychological treatment to help you determine if medical treatment is truly the direction you want to go. Anyone experiencing gender dysphoria but not yet medically transitioning should be required to have extensive (at least a year) psychological treatment to determine if medical treatment is right for them. Medical treatments should not be allowed for anyone under 21 (with grandfathering for those who have medical treatments already in progress, who wish to continue and whose parents/guardians agree). Of course the rights of people to dress and present themselves as they like should be protected by law - people should feel safe and not be discriminated against for jobs, housing, or other non-sex-based access. Most importantly, freedom of speech and debate on this topic must be respected. It must be recognized as a controversial belief system that schools can’t teach as fact, medical research must be open to honest analysis and criticism, and no one can be legally prosecuted or discriminated against for not believing it or expressing a belief in it.
I realize this is not what the community wants - they want to hear “kill! Erase!” so they have a justification for their rage. I actually think that publicly stating our beliefs goes a long way toward dismantling their arguments.
Disinformation Project researcher Dr Sanjana Hattotuwa previously told RNZ the outpouring of hate towards the trans community triggered by Keen-Minshull visit was beyond anything he has seen.
"They are being hounded, harassed and harmed and hated upon online - to a degree we've never studied before."
Hattotuwa said a major change had been the degree to which the "extraordinarily violent" content has been taken up and distributed by anti-vax and anti-mandate groups.
He said the vitriol directed at the trans community could be described as "genocidal".
Outside their own groups, only children could possibly think these "observations" about the cultural climate are anything but pulled out of a hat, because they simply want it to be the case that society wants trans people dead and gone. It's such embarrassing childish nonsense.
“We are basically the mushroom zombies from The Last Of Us. Human-like things that used to be people until they were infected, and now are grotesque dangerous creatures…”
Well, to be fair… This does kind of describe aspects of my teen son, but it’s hard to separate the “trans” from the “teen.”
Some of their “nightmare” scenarios aren’t far off. I *would* like people caught in this insanity to detransition — and get decent mental health support. Not quite genocide. What strikes me is this sense of a huge, cohesive, unified community, who will valiantly fight together to protect their long-standing and noble culture and history. I could be completely wrong, but I get the sense that the “community” is largely online and completely focused on seeking validation or mining the oppression depths, and that the only time they gather is for a misogynistic counter-protest. More delusion.
We do need to firmly draw lines again around speech, even horrible speech, and physical violence.
A hallmark of trans ideology is blurring -or queering - distinctions.
It's the only we can stop people looking at a situation which includes a fractured orbital bone and hurt feelings from rude words online and concluding the rude words is worse than the punch.
What I would like to see is (in no particular order):
a) a change to laws such that all gender-related medical and surgical treatments are only allowed based on consent of the patient *plus* two other mental healthcare professionals and a judge, with a minimum age of consent for the patient of 25;
b) a major review of how the psychiatric and judicial professions allowed physical treatment of transsexuals to operate for so long, with a view to finding proper psychiatric healthcare instead of mutilation, and;
c) societal acceptance of people wearing, and behaving as they like within appropriate, sex-based boundaries.
Of course, underpinning all this is the need for much better, both in terms of quality and availability, mental health care. Ultimately, the current situation is rooted in the West's poor provision of care for those with mental health problems.
They fixate on this, the idea that they are a community under siege, that there is An Enemy who wants them dead. It's a way to create a community: invent a dark, threatening force that demands them to band together in opposition. It's not a great way to create a community, it's not sustainable.
They are wrong. No one wants them dead. The rape and death threats come from them.
They are poisoning themselves, they are destroying their mental and physical health, at great profits for the pharma and surgical industry. Brakes are being applied to protect children from doing this. Adults can poison themselves on their own dime--insurance or public health care funds should not be spent on this, anymore than it should for blood-letting or trepanning.
No one is going to die because they have to pay for their laser hair removal. No one is going to die because they can't use their own sex category of bathroom.
Another reason this whole situation feels kinda like a "religion-like" thing is that a bunch of stuff atheists say about believers also fits here. You know, there's this awesome Daniel Dennet quote I keep in mind: "There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion."
"a world without trans & nonbinary people" is what they think we want, but I would be happy to live in "a world with trans & nonbinary people" WHO ARE NOT TELLING THE REST OF US WHAT TO DO AND WHAT TO BELIEVE.
You know what this reminds me of? Extremist racist or misogynistic talk that "the white race is under threat" or "feminists hate men" -- very privileged, entitled groups believing that their privilege is under threat.
It is such a relief for me to read articles like this, as well as the comments. There is no one in my group of friends or other social contacts (as far as i know) who shares my deep concerns about how the trans movement is harming women and girls, especially. I can't understand how my liberal pals who are usually pro-science and studying issues carefully etc. just accept and promote the trans ideology without thinking about it. Hoping the extremism of this pendulum swing soon swings back.
Some of the quotes on the article seem to be living in genuine fear and it’s really sad. Other quotes seem to be playing with the ideas of violence and genocide almost like a game or part of a ritual with varying levels of buy-in.
It feels similar to the Evangelical Christian Persecution Complex, which, in the US, occasionally flares to really intense levels (the satanic panics of the 1980s, the evangelical backlash to marriage equality).
It’s like they are feeding off each other and they are more similar than either side would care to admit. Just a few years ago it was Mike Pence speaking of Christian persecution from the White House (and like now with Biden, Trump gave lip service to the narrative and people questioned how much he believed it or whether it was all just a calculated political move). In some corners of evangelical christianity, the fears of persecution are all encompassing. The difference is that there is more pushback on the claims of Christian persecution and it comes from both secular sources and other Christians. The Atlantic article is especially interesting because it tries to acknowledge there are some true Christian hate crimes happening in the US while also putting claims of persecution in context and discrediting the larger idea.
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/08/the-evangelical-persecution-complex/375506/
https://www.redletterchristians.org/the-white-evangelical-persecution-complex/
Another great article. Eliza’s writing is definitely worth paying for.
I find it genuinely shocking and upsetting that they think we want them dead.
I don't want anyone dead, or in camps, or even in a closet.
If they weren't invading womens' spaces, intimidating everybody and attempting to indoctrinate children, I would fight for their right to live as they wish.
This is not the first time that people adopted irrational beliefs that terrorized them or led them to mortify their bodies. We just notice this particular episode more because we are living inside it. We would be saying these same things about flagellant cults of the Middle Ages, court eunuchs of the Old World, elite hypochondrias, patent medicine fads, or witch trials. My thesis is history, focused on the English Civil War, when these phenomena were recent, happening, or about to happen. What ties them all together is great wealth in a society. Puritans are "blessed" with riches, so they ostentatiously wear very fine, plain fabrics and remove all the gilding from the church. Burghers are Catholic and wealth is a sin, so they pogrom the local Jews, then ostentatiously wear sackcloth and whip themselves. Cities burn, witches burn. I get asked a lot just why we are in this historical moment and the answer is that it's a First World problem.
My answer: if you are an adult and are happy with your life, keep living it. Dress how you want, present yourself how you want. However, you are still genetically and legally your birth sex, and this matters in situations of privacy, safety, and fairness. You can’t legally play in sports teams where people of your sex are not allowed (but you can play on co-ed or teams for your birth sex) or access spaces like locker rooms for the opposite sex where nudity is usual (although you can use the locker room for your birth sex, or a designated room for you if one exists, although businesses are not obligated to provide one). If you are medically transitioning, continue your current treatment if you are satisfied with it but you should be required to add true psychological treatment to help you determine if medical treatment is truly the direction you want to go. Anyone experiencing gender dysphoria but not yet medically transitioning should be required to have extensive (at least a year) psychological treatment to determine if medical treatment is right for them. Medical treatments should not be allowed for anyone under 21 (with grandfathering for those who have medical treatments already in progress, who wish to continue and whose parents/guardians agree). Of course the rights of people to dress and present themselves as they like should be protected by law - people should feel safe and not be discriminated against for jobs, housing, or other non-sex-based access. Most importantly, freedom of speech and debate on this topic must be respected. It must be recognized as a controversial belief system that schools can’t teach as fact, medical research must be open to honest analysis and criticism, and no one can be legally prosecuted or discriminated against for not believing it or expressing a belief in it.
I realize this is not what the community wants - they want to hear “kill! Erase!” so they have a justification for their rage. I actually think that publicly stating our beliefs goes a long way toward dismantling their arguments.
NZ media in on the phobia indoctrination: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/487640/police-urge-anyone-including-the-rainbow-community-to-report-threats-violence
Disinformation Project researcher Dr Sanjana Hattotuwa previously told RNZ the outpouring of hate towards the trans community triggered by Keen-Minshull visit was beyond anything he has seen.
"They are being hounded, harassed and harmed and hated upon online - to a degree we've never studied before."
Hattotuwa said a major change had been the degree to which the "extraordinarily violent" content has been taken up and distributed by anti-vax and anti-mandate groups.
He said the vitriol directed at the trans community could be described as "genocidal".
Outside their own groups, only children could possibly think these "observations" about the cultural climate are anything but pulled out of a hat, because they simply want it to be the case that society wants trans people dead and gone. It's such embarrassing childish nonsense.
“We are basically the mushroom zombies from The Last Of Us. Human-like things that used to be people until they were infected, and now are grotesque dangerous creatures…”
Well, to be fair… This does kind of describe aspects of my teen son, but it’s hard to separate the “trans” from the “teen.”
Some of their “nightmare” scenarios aren’t far off. I *would* like people caught in this insanity to detransition — and get decent mental health support. Not quite genocide. What strikes me is this sense of a huge, cohesive, unified community, who will valiantly fight together to protect their long-standing and noble culture and history. I could be completely wrong, but I get the sense that the “community” is largely online and completely focused on seeking validation or mining the oppression depths, and that the only time they gather is for a misogynistic counter-protest. More delusion.
We do need to firmly draw lines again around speech, even horrible speech, and physical violence.
A hallmark of trans ideology is blurring -or queering - distinctions.
It's the only we can stop people looking at a situation which includes a fractured orbital bone and hurt feelings from rude words online and concluding the rude words is worse than the punch.
it's called "pre-traumatic stress syndrome". i'd also say "DARVO" fits the situation.
What I would like to see is (in no particular order):
a) a change to laws such that all gender-related medical and surgical treatments are only allowed based on consent of the patient *plus* two other mental healthcare professionals and a judge, with a minimum age of consent for the patient of 25;
b) a major review of how the psychiatric and judicial professions allowed physical treatment of transsexuals to operate for so long, with a view to finding proper psychiatric healthcare instead of mutilation, and;
c) societal acceptance of people wearing, and behaving as they like within appropriate, sex-based boundaries.
Of course, underpinning all this is the need for much better, both in terms of quality and availability, mental health care. Ultimately, the current situation is rooted in the West's poor provision of care for those with mental health problems.