It turns out nothing-means-anything upside-down-and-backwards funhouse-mirror land is a disorienting place where children and young people go to make often irreversible decisions that will affect the rest of their lives. “How did you know you were trans and not nonbinary?,” one young woman asks.
As a 6’5” guy, I realize that I may be scary to some women. That fear is something that I never cultivate or want. Most men I know aren’t interested in being scary to women.
This desire to be seen as scary is rather strange. It’s not a particularly male attitude. It gives away the fact that she’s a fake man. Real men want women to find them attractive, not scary.
"It gives away the fact that she's a fake man." That may be true, but then, it may also be true that there are more men out there who want to be scary to women than we realize. A lot of men want to be in control of their relationships with women, and fear is their most effective tool for being in control. I watch a lot of true-crime shows, and I saw one recently in which the man was very easy-going and popular with his friends, but was terrifying to his wife. We need to distinguish between the public and private faces of men.
I’ve known several guys who would show up to class in grad school or to work with black eyes, multiple bruises and worse after having being thoroughly beaten by their abusive wife or girlfriend. And I’m not talking about red faced (from being repeatedly slapped) Louis Lift on Suits. One had been so drilled as a youth by his father to never strike a women under any circumstances that he was unable to even mount a defense and was in therapy about it. It may be rare, but it happens.
Yes, most men are decent and use their strength and aggression to protect women and children, and as a woman, I don't go through my day seeing men as scary.
We also cannot be daft enough to think that just because a woman wears a dress, that she's incapable of hurting a child or putting a child in danger. Vile women, devoid of the maternal instinct to protect children, look the other way while a man in the home hurts a child. People have let slide violence throughout history, protecting their cherished stereotypes. All a man or woman has to do is wear certain clothes or groom a certain way and voila! Their outward appearance covers them in a magic cloak of goodness, and right now men in dresses are on a pedestal of goodness.
It's true that women are capable of neglect and violence towards children, but it would be foolish to forget that such behaviours are overwhelmingly perpetrated by men.
This is not always true. I agree that it true for most men and sometimes they’re left hopeless trying not to be seen as threatening. But a decade or so ago there was an article about a Reddit thread by a guy about how to confuse young women so they didn’t know they’d been raped. He wanted to rape them not to obtain consent.
There is also a very strong argument that most men commit domestic violence (which is relatively common-far more so than transgender identity) in order to maintain the control they believe is their right in a relationship.
I didn't write that anything was "always true." I was speaking of myself. Then, I extrapolated to the majority of men. I didn't say that anything applied to all men.
Yes, the majority of people committing domestic violence are men. This population of people is small. The majority of men don't commit domestic violence.
Sometimes prejudice is necessary when it comes under the category of rational caution. Because some males have the physical power and the desire to hurt women, and because those males don’t wear a neon sign announcing their viciousness, women need to be wise to this danger. That doesn’t mean believing all men are dangerous but when in doubt, basic intelligence requires assuming the worst and taking necessary action to avoid becoming a statistic.
It's not prejudice. It's awareness. Calling it prejudice is harmful to yourself and other females, because it's gaslighting to yourself or other females who are sensing danger, and who, as a result, may feel they should deny that danger: and then get attacked. It can cause females who've heard this from you and the rest of society to not trust their instincts, and walk right into dangerous situations, or not leave soon enough, while they can.
Please consider: what is this desperate need you have to stick up for men, and to find most of them to be "nice guys." And where did this need come from? Who has guilt-tripped you or made you feel fearful of criticizing men or calling out their sexism or danger? Has anyone in your life, or in the media, ever said within earshot of you that women who criticize men are bi****s, ballbreakers, femina**s, or "one of THOSE kind of feminists"?
I ask because I used to do the same thing as you. I used to think the same. Every woman in the world has been guilt-tripped into not noticing and calling out sexism or male danger where it exists, or doing her best to pretend she feels safe when she doesn't. Every. Woman. On. Earth.
Once I read Susan Griffin's book, Woman and Nature: The Roaring Inside Her, in 1980, I thought the whole book was b s. So unfair! A pack of lies! No one thought that way anymore!
Then I walked out into the world, and suddenly started noticing sexism EVERYWHERE. Where I had never seen it before. That book had when me up, and helped me make all kinds of connections I never had before, between sexist patriarchal ideas and what I was surrounded by in society.
I started noticing male sexism constantly. And each time I noticed it, I'd then think, "Oh, I'm sure he doesn't mean it that way. I'm sure he has a mother/sister/wife/girlfriend/grandmother he loves very much. I'm sure he doesn't mean it that way." I would give this benefit of the doubt to complete male strangers on the street, or on the street car, in coffee shops, etc.
Then I started wondering why I was giving all these male strangers the benefit of the doubt, instead of giving my own perceptions the benefit of the doubt. I didn't know a thing about them, except their sexist behavior I'd witnessed, but I had known myself for 19 years!
So I started an experiment: to give my perceptions about male sexism the benefit of the doubt, and let them prove me wrong.
No one ever proved me wrong.
Then I started stating my perceptions out loud. The first time was at a bus stop in San Francisco. A man did something sexist. I don't recall what it was, but it was blatant. I stated it out loud, to the half dozen women at the bus stop. Every single woman turned to me and said, "I'm sure he didn't mean it that way. Didn't mean it that way. Didnt mean it that way! Surely he has a mother/sister/daughter/wife/girlfriend he loves! I'm sure he doesn't mean it that way! I'm sure he's a nice guy. A nice guy. A nice guy!"
They all said what I'd been saying in my head. Somehow, we'd all been trained to think the same thing, and to defend a male stranger over our own objective observations of him doing something sexist!
It is taboo for women to call out male sexism, still, 99% of the time. Or to say out loud when we don't feel safe around a man. Think of how many times people around you will dismiss you if you say you don't feel safe around a man, or he gives you the creeps.
Hi! I like your voice in this conversation. I'm excited to read your book recommendation, especially upon reading this review. "In this famously provocative cornerstone of feminist literature, Susan Griffin explores the identification of women with the earth both as sustenance for humanity and as victim of male rage. Starting from Plato’s fateful division of the world into spirit and matter, her analysis of how patriarchal Western philosophy and religion have used language and science to bolster their power over both women and nature is brilliant and persuasive, coming alive in poetic prose." I wish as a young female I had been taught certain things. And let me make it clear the things I wish I was taught I really was in fact NOT TAUGHT! I was not taught that men and teenage boys may jump you in a sexual manner if you are alone with them, and that they may even drag you off to be alone with them and may sexually assault you. That they may do this wordlessly, literally NO WORDS, just do things to you . . . and here is the important part I was not taught. Their "goodness" or "badness" is not something for us as teen girls or young women to ascertain before deciding to risk being alone with one. I was assaulted so many times in so many ways, often times because I thought it was to judge them as "bad" to not be alone with them for whatever the case may be. Every single "guy" I tried to befriend jumped me, and others I wasn't trying to be friends with. I was put in the hallway for defending someone, a boy no less, when I was in 8th grade. A guy was in the hallway already and he grabbed my you know what. I should not had been put in the hallway with him, and if he identified as a girl or nonbinary I still shouldn't had been. I never shared my stories in "me too" so I guess I'm doing that a little bit now. But the biggest mistake to make is to assume that your idea that the teen boy or young man is "good" so therefor won't do anything sexual without any conversation even or any consent is not wise. Good boys do bad things by assuming you "wanted it." That is my hang up and so many female's hang ups, not protecting themselves because to protect themselves would to infer that the person is "bad." Maybe instead it should just be explained that good and bad could have little do with it! The real issue is they have extremely strong hormones and are likely driven to want to be close to you, even if you feel zero attraction yourself it doesn't mean they don't feel it. And they may innocently mistake their own desire for mutuality. Whether you call that good or bad or prejudice or whatever, it is useful information especially for young women. My problem was I never felt a sense of attraction and so mistakenly thought the guy didn't either, and mistakenly thought in terms of "good" or "bad" versus reality. I really didn't understand how extremely sexually interested many guys were in me, and that their interest did not make them "bad." But if I don't have that interest should preemptively say so and stay in a public well peopled place if attempting a friendship. And those safeguards can be done without calling them "bad."
Thanks for your reply and kind words, TreesForAll. I love your name, by the way. And thanks
for looking up Susan Griffin and sharing that review! One of my frustrations with the book is that she doesn't write which men wrote the various things she included in it, so I didn't know that aspect was from Plato. Thank you.
Your story is heartbreaking. And infuriating. How dare all these males do those things to you. How dare they.
It's one thing for them to be sexually attracted to you or another woman. But it's quite another to have laid so much as a finger on you, ever, without your consent. That's assault or rape, not sexual attraction. You aren't theirs to touch. Your body is your property. It's wrong for them to even look a woman up and down and make her feel uncomfortable. I wasn't there and am not in your shoes, but to me, it is A-Ok to label these males "bad." They are at least that. You deserve to be able to acknowledge what they did to you, without your consent. This is a big part of patriarchy: women are denied the right or supoort to even say what we've experienced, and that we were wronged, criminally wronged. You have aroght to say it, and to be supported forbit. And you have the right to press charges if it's within the statute of limitations. If you wish to, I want to give you moral support to do so. It's your right, and women and girls have a right to have their assaults legally acknowledged and to have justice for them. And to have the crimes against us counted. Yours count. It takes a lot of bravery to report assaults precisely because we aren't believed, because we're supposed to just put up with it, to not be uptight, to not "hurt his future," though you live with this and it affects your today and future, the poor guy,, blah, blah, blah.
Josie, here's an experiment to try, if you're willing. It's only an experiment. Time-limited, for, say, 2 weeks. Or 3 days. You choose.
The experiment: Next time you're around any male, or watching one on a screen, make a note (even in a notebook, during or right afterward) of everything he does or says that is sexist, including patriarchal dress or hair, etc.
Then notice how you feel as you note each of these things? Does it make you feel uncomfortable? Mean? Unfair? Prejudiced? Inaccurate? Afraid? Afraid of what, or of whom?
You know, I actually thought that "Alison" putting "John" on a spot with "you know men", as if John is a potential rapist, was incredibly obnoxious. I bet if she got called out on it, we probably would also hear "well, she didn't mean it that way"
I agree with you, there’s no justification for those kind of attitudes. I always pull people up when they start mindless verbal man-bashing. It’s inaccurate, unfair, doesn’t advance relationships between the sexes and is corrosive to many men, especially young men. And we already know young men aren’t doing well so there’s no need to clobber them over the head with unwarranted assumptions.
I can't help but notice that the cross-sex identifying female wants, apparently, to be seen as a man, the kind that might lurk in a dark parking lot. She doesn't recognize that men do not read women as men, even when their voices have been lowered by the T. The obsession with "passing" is clear and it seems to be dominating this friendship. It appears the friends have developed eternal patience. I'd make an excuse to go home as soon as the charade comes up. This self-involved woman needs to detransition and learn some hobbies and skills, find a way to be useful and helpful to others, instead of taking on the job of thought police.
Very well said, the self-obsession and fanaticism about controlling other's thoughts (something none of us can ever hope to do) is the very opposite of good mental health or of a good interpersonal foundation.
True. It’s very appealing to people who tend towards black and white/ good vs evil thinking (which is apparently very characteristic of Woke Leftism) but it is human nature, going back to caveman times. It’s partly old survival skills: prejudice saves time, when time matters. We need to work against this tendency when it’s not helpful, that’s for sure.
How does a stranger know which statistical group any given man fits into? How do you account for changes in behaviour? Also, we know that predators will try to fit into any "safe" group, undermining any good done. Again, men need to be treated as polar bears.
I'm a man. I've read history. I know about wars, slavery, massacres. I've dealt with murderers, rapists, abusers of all stripes. I *know* how dangerous men are. I *know* how a previously (apparently) harmless man can turn. I *know* that humanity is the most dangerous animal on this planet because of men.
However, I have also dealt with the kindest, loveliest men - and I like to regard myself in that category. The reality is that the former category mean that the latter category can never be given carte blanche. I know that even men cannot assume that a male stranger is safe. To think otherwise is foolhardy.
That “lite” faux dude has her face smushed against the funhouse mirror. The icky feeling she’s scrambling to snuff is only going to get worse. It’s called reality babe, and it’s going to win. You’ll lose your girlfriend and every friend on your rampage to force lies down their throats. You exhaust not only yourself but everyone in your path. Yet if you just surrender to reality things will get so much better. You’re not a man. That’s why you’re not a threat. See? Easy. You don’t need balls. You need humility.
It’s a small thing but I think this is the key quote right here: “...but I still don't feel gender the way most people do.”
These poor kids are being deluded into thinking that people “feel gender.” What does that even mean? No wonder they’re confused.
I don’t know what it feels like to be a woman, in some generic way, or to have (or not have) a gender. I know what it feels like to be me and absent the development of mind-meld technology, that’s the only “feeling like” experience I will ever know. I have no way of knowing how others experience feeling like themselves, just like I don’t know how others experience the color red or anything else. Sure, my biology means that I have had certain experiences that men will never have (though some are trying pretty hard) and there are certain things men can experience that I never will. But there are also plenty of men with whom I feel like I have more in common than I do with many women. None of this makes me “feel” any less (or more) of a woman. Being a woman, being female, is just a fact, not a feeling. And I claim no “gender” -- only the biological sex determined, irrevocably, when sperm met egg many decades ago.
I noticed that, too. The belief in a gender feeling, and that they are somehow special, different than everyone else in their particular flavor of this feeling. It’s irrational, and shocking that the idea of a “felt” gender is supported by the medical community as a basis for irreversible, pointless “treatments”. People have lost their minds.
This woman is too preoccupied with monitoring her victimhood status and how she’s perceived to consider the reality of violence against women. She has no thought about who might be on the receiving end of the threatening behavior she wants to be seen as capable of exhibiting, and what the reality of that experience would be. This is simply another thing she wants to wear to increase her sense of validity. This is not someone who has experienced violence, or is capable of or interested in understanding the reality of violence. This is an especially repugnant quality.
I have to wonder how whatever this is — narcissism? Pathological insecurity? — would manifest if trans wasn’t a thing. Is this ideology creating this neurotic behavior in what would otherwise be relatively well-adjusted people or would these people just gravitate to the next shiniest object to attach themselves to?
I think the personality disorder is already there and trans just fertilizes it. Not a psychologist but that cluster b type seems like the ticket. These are people who could whine to a room full of holocaust survivors that they have it real bad.
But you’re NOT a danger to women! You can’t overpower us! You can’t impregnate us! Men aren’t considered dangerous because they have masculine gender cooties, they’re considered dangerous because they have certain physical traits which you DON’T HAVE. Argh, sorry, this is just so crazy-making. Her gf should’ve stuck to her guns.
Male people pose a unique threat to female people, because male people are the only people who can forcibly impregnate female people against their will. How any of the people involved "identify" is irrelevant. Baffled that it's seen as transphobic to recognise this.
It's also kinda funny in that it begs the question if there are skinny 5 foot 2 inch guys that feel emasculated for not being seen as threatening as other men, or a threat at all. Or what if the person referencing male violence only looked at a black guy in the room and ignored all the other guys who happened to be white, what then? Eliza's point that the rabbit hole of gender ideology really can take you to ridiculous stances is well illustrated in her example
A person really needs to step back and consider who they are if they need to be associated with violence against women in order to feel secure in their “true self” and good about their relationships with others and how others see them
This *is* their hobby. Just like fanatical football fans, performing their fanaticism (right shirt, boots, posters, going to all the matches etc) is what they live for.
I have forgotten the name of the trans man who started to shoot up a school four-to-six months ago, but was killed before she could kill too many people. We'll be seeing more of those in the future -- trans men (like the one being quoted above) who are so determined to show the world that they are real men that they go on killing sprees or otherwise try to be scary. But you know, women have it in them to be pretty scary even without the testosterone. Perhaps five years ago I met a female college student renting an apartment one street over, and her behavior was so aggressive I avoided her every time I went down her street.
I'm simple. I would like to be identified as having a brain. The narcissism in those statements is astounding. How do they set aside their obsession with navel gazing long enough to pay the bills? Are all of them trust funders?
She was at risk as a woman, and she sought safety by trying to become one of the "predators" instead. When someone doesn't treat her as scary, it reminds her that she's really still part of the "prey."
How about for a comment that this is just insane sounding and crazy making? Can you imagine going through life stuck on and consumed by this one aspect of your being? We have become a society unserious in nature and purpose, absorbed by the self when this is the conversation of the day.
Too much head spinning to read carefully. But apparently the TIF wants to be scary to women. Is that misogynistic or transmisogynistic? Just reading about the sit-down interrogation/apology/re-education session made my skin crawl. Hope the sane partner escapes the relationship soon.
If people got off the internet and spent time fishing, or hiking, or observing clouds, anything that is the antithesis of taking whatever is inside their heads and externalizing it for the entire world to attend to, then almost all of this nonsense would just disappear. There's real dysphoria, which deserves compassion and appropriate treatment, and then there's taking the insane contents of the mind and treating them as though they merit intense scrutiny and public debate. Nonsense, chatter, citta-vritis on display for all the world to see... it's such an awful time to be a human being.
As a 6’5” guy, I realize that I may be scary to some women. That fear is something that I never cultivate or want. Most men I know aren’t interested in being scary to women.
This desire to be seen as scary is rather strange. It’s not a particularly male attitude. It gives away the fact that she’s a fake man. Real men want women to find them attractive, not scary.
"It gives away the fact that she's a fake man." That may be true, but then, it may also be true that there are more men out there who want to be scary to women than we realize. A lot of men want to be in control of their relationships with women, and fear is their most effective tool for being in control. I watch a lot of true-crime shows, and I saw one recently in which the man was very easy-going and popular with his friends, but was terrifying to his wife. We need to distinguish between the public and private faces of men.
I’ve known several guys who would show up to class in grad school or to work with black eyes, multiple bruises and worse after having being thoroughly beaten by their abusive wife or girlfriend. And I’m not talking about red faced (from being repeatedly slapped) Louis Lift on Suits. One had been so drilled as a youth by his father to never strike a women under any circumstances that he was unable to even mount a defense and was in therapy about it. It may be rare, but it happens.
Yes, most men are decent and use their strength and aggression to protect women and children, and as a woman, I don't go through my day seeing men as scary.
We also cannot be daft enough to think that just because a woman wears a dress, that she's incapable of hurting a child or putting a child in danger. Vile women, devoid of the maternal instinct to protect children, look the other way while a man in the home hurts a child. People have let slide violence throughout history, protecting their cherished stereotypes. All a man or woman has to do is wear certain clothes or groom a certain way and voila! Their outward appearance covers them in a magic cloak of goodness, and right now men in dresses are on a pedestal of goodness.
It's true that women are capable of neglect and violence towards children, but it would be foolish to forget that such behaviours are overwhelmingly perpetrated by men.
You are correct and that's why I would never be foolish enough to state such a thing.
It's actually worse than that, in the UK & probably most other countries too:
(Source Office for National Statistics / Crime Survey of England & Wales)
99% of sex offenders are male
88% of victims are female
Male pattern sex offending does not change with transition (as you note)
But ALSO
Trans-identified males are FIVE TIMES MORE LIKELY than males generally to be convicted of sex offending.
-- the transgender link with male paraphilias (autogynephilia, paedophilia) is what transactivists do not want us to know.
Yep. I'd love not to be treated as a threat by women (198cm tall, broad shoulders), but that just isn't realistic.
This is not always true. I agree that it true for most men and sometimes they’re left hopeless trying not to be seen as threatening. But a decade or so ago there was an article about a Reddit thread by a guy about how to confuse young women so they didn’t know they’d been raped. He wanted to rape them not to obtain consent.
There is also a very strong argument that most men commit domestic violence (which is relatively common-far more so than transgender identity) in order to maintain the control they believe is their right in a relationship.
I didn't write that anything was "always true." I was speaking of myself. Then, I extrapolated to the majority of men. I didn't say that anything applied to all men.
Yes, the majority of people committing domestic violence are men. This population of people is small. The majority of men don't commit domestic violence.
Sometimes prejudice is necessary when it comes under the category of rational caution. Because some males have the physical power and the desire to hurt women, and because those males don’t wear a neon sign announcing their viciousness, women need to be wise to this danger. That doesn’t mean believing all men are dangerous but when in doubt, basic intelligence requires assuming the worst and taking necessary action to avoid becoming a statistic.
It's not prejudice. It's awareness. Calling it prejudice is harmful to yourself and other females, because it's gaslighting to yourself or other females who are sensing danger, and who, as a result, may feel they should deny that danger: and then get attacked. It can cause females who've heard this from you and the rest of society to not trust their instincts, and walk right into dangerous situations, or not leave soon enough, while they can.
Please consider: what is this desperate need you have to stick up for men, and to find most of them to be "nice guys." And where did this need come from? Who has guilt-tripped you or made you feel fearful of criticizing men or calling out their sexism or danger? Has anyone in your life, or in the media, ever said within earshot of you that women who criticize men are bi****s, ballbreakers, femina**s, or "one of THOSE kind of feminists"?
I ask because I used to do the same thing as you. I used to think the same. Every woman in the world has been guilt-tripped into not noticing and calling out sexism or male danger where it exists, or doing her best to pretend she feels safe when she doesn't. Every. Woman. On. Earth.
Once I read Susan Griffin's book, Woman and Nature: The Roaring Inside Her, in 1980, I thought the whole book was b s. So unfair! A pack of lies! No one thought that way anymore!
Then I walked out into the world, and suddenly started noticing sexism EVERYWHERE. Where I had never seen it before. That book had when me up, and helped me make all kinds of connections I never had before, between sexist patriarchal ideas and what I was surrounded by in society.
I started noticing male sexism constantly. And each time I noticed it, I'd then think, "Oh, I'm sure he doesn't mean it that way. I'm sure he has a mother/sister/wife/girlfriend/grandmother he loves very much. I'm sure he doesn't mean it that way." I would give this benefit of the doubt to complete male strangers on the street, or on the street car, in coffee shops, etc.
Then I started wondering why I was giving all these male strangers the benefit of the doubt, instead of giving my own perceptions the benefit of the doubt. I didn't know a thing about them, except their sexist behavior I'd witnessed, but I had known myself for 19 years!
So I started an experiment: to give my perceptions about male sexism the benefit of the doubt, and let them prove me wrong.
No one ever proved me wrong.
Then I started stating my perceptions out loud. The first time was at a bus stop in San Francisco. A man did something sexist. I don't recall what it was, but it was blatant. I stated it out loud, to the half dozen women at the bus stop. Every single woman turned to me and said, "I'm sure he didn't mean it that way. Didn't mean it that way. Didnt mean it that way! Surely he has a mother/sister/daughter/wife/girlfriend he loves! I'm sure he doesn't mean it that way! I'm sure he's a nice guy. A nice guy. A nice guy!"
They all said what I'd been saying in my head. Somehow, we'd all been trained to think the same thing, and to defend a male stranger over our own objective observations of him doing something sexist!
It is taboo for women to call out male sexism, still, 99% of the time. Or to say out loud when we don't feel safe around a man. Think of how many times people around you will dismiss you if you say you don't feel safe around a man, or he gives you the creeps.
Food for thought.
Hi! I like your voice in this conversation. I'm excited to read your book recommendation, especially upon reading this review. "In this famously provocative cornerstone of feminist literature, Susan Griffin explores the identification of women with the earth both as sustenance for humanity and as victim of male rage. Starting from Plato’s fateful division of the world into spirit and matter, her analysis of how patriarchal Western philosophy and religion have used language and science to bolster their power over both women and nature is brilliant and persuasive, coming alive in poetic prose." I wish as a young female I had been taught certain things. And let me make it clear the things I wish I was taught I really was in fact NOT TAUGHT! I was not taught that men and teenage boys may jump you in a sexual manner if you are alone with them, and that they may even drag you off to be alone with them and may sexually assault you. That they may do this wordlessly, literally NO WORDS, just do things to you . . . and here is the important part I was not taught. Their "goodness" or "badness" is not something for us as teen girls or young women to ascertain before deciding to risk being alone with one. I was assaulted so many times in so many ways, often times because I thought it was to judge them as "bad" to not be alone with them for whatever the case may be. Every single "guy" I tried to befriend jumped me, and others I wasn't trying to be friends with. I was put in the hallway for defending someone, a boy no less, when I was in 8th grade. A guy was in the hallway already and he grabbed my you know what. I should not had been put in the hallway with him, and if he identified as a girl or nonbinary I still shouldn't had been. I never shared my stories in "me too" so I guess I'm doing that a little bit now. But the biggest mistake to make is to assume that your idea that the teen boy or young man is "good" so therefor won't do anything sexual without any conversation even or any consent is not wise. Good boys do bad things by assuming you "wanted it." That is my hang up and so many female's hang ups, not protecting themselves because to protect themselves would to infer that the person is "bad." Maybe instead it should just be explained that good and bad could have little do with it! The real issue is they have extremely strong hormones and are likely driven to want to be close to you, even if you feel zero attraction yourself it doesn't mean they don't feel it. And they may innocently mistake their own desire for mutuality. Whether you call that good or bad or prejudice or whatever, it is useful information especially for young women. My problem was I never felt a sense of attraction and so mistakenly thought the guy didn't either, and mistakenly thought in terms of "good" or "bad" versus reality. I really didn't understand how extremely sexually interested many guys were in me, and that their interest did not make them "bad." But if I don't have that interest should preemptively say so and stay in a public well peopled place if attempting a friendship. And those safeguards can be done without calling them "bad."
Thanks for your reply and kind words, TreesForAll. I love your name, by the way. And thanks
for looking up Susan Griffin and sharing that review! One of my frustrations with the book is that she doesn't write which men wrote the various things she included in it, so I didn't know that aspect was from Plato. Thank you.
Your story is heartbreaking. And infuriating. How dare all these males do those things to you. How dare they.
It's one thing for them to be sexually attracted to you or another woman. But it's quite another to have laid so much as a finger on you, ever, without your consent. That's assault or rape, not sexual attraction. You aren't theirs to touch. Your body is your property. It's wrong for them to even look a woman up and down and make her feel uncomfortable. I wasn't there and am not in your shoes, but to me, it is A-Ok to label these males "bad." They are at least that. You deserve to be able to acknowledge what they did to you, without your consent. This is a big part of patriarchy: women are denied the right or supoort to even say what we've experienced, and that we were wronged, criminally wronged. You have aroght to say it, and to be supported forbit. And you have the right to press charges if it's within the statute of limitations. If you wish to, I want to give you moral support to do so. It's your right, and women and girls have a right to have their assaults legally acknowledged and to have justice for them. And to have the crimes against us counted. Yours count. It takes a lot of bravery to report assaults precisely because we aren't believed, because we're supposed to just put up with it, to not be uptight, to not "hurt his future," though you live with this and it affects your today and future, the poor guy,, blah, blah, blah.
You matter.
Josie, here's an experiment to try, if you're willing. It's only an experiment. Time-limited, for, say, 2 weeks. Or 3 days. You choose.
The experiment: Next time you're around any male, or watching one on a screen, make a note (even in a notebook, during or right afterward) of everything he does or says that is sexist, including patriarchal dress or hair, etc.
Then notice how you feel as you note each of these things? Does it make you feel uncomfortable? Mean? Unfair? Prejudiced? Inaccurate? Afraid? Afraid of what, or of whom?
Just to see what comes up for you.
You know, I actually thought that "Alison" putting "John" on a spot with "you know men", as if John is a potential rapist, was incredibly obnoxious. I bet if she got called out on it, we probably would also hear "well, she didn't mean it that way"
I agree with you, there’s no justification for those kind of attitudes. I always pull people up when they start mindless verbal man-bashing. It’s inaccurate, unfair, doesn’t advance relationships between the sexes and is corrosive to many men, especially young men. And we already know young men aren’t doing well so there’s no need to clobber them over the head with unwarranted assumptions.
I can't help but notice that the cross-sex identifying female wants, apparently, to be seen as a man, the kind that might lurk in a dark parking lot. She doesn't recognize that men do not read women as men, even when their voices have been lowered by the T. The obsession with "passing" is clear and it seems to be dominating this friendship. It appears the friends have developed eternal patience. I'd make an excuse to go home as soon as the charade comes up. This self-involved woman needs to detransition and learn some hobbies and skills, find a way to be useful and helpful to others, instead of taking on the job of thought police.
Very well said, the self-obsession and fanaticism about controlling other's thoughts (something none of us can ever hope to do) is the very opposite of good mental health or of a good interpersonal foundation.
True. It’s very appealing to people who tend towards black and white/ good vs evil thinking (which is apparently very characteristic of Woke Leftism) but it is human nature, going back to caveman times. It’s partly old survival skills: prejudice saves time, when time matters. We need to work against this tendency when it’s not helpful, that’s for sure.
"Being prejudiced to all polar bears because of the actions of some polar bears..." Common sense is not prejudice.
How does a stranger know which statistical group any given man fits into? How do you account for changes in behaviour? Also, we know that predators will try to fit into any "safe" group, undermining any good done. Again, men need to be treated as polar bears.
Insert predator of your choice - it makes no difference. I suspect the animal predators are statistically safer...
If I gave you a bowl of M&Ms and said, “One percent of these are poisoned, but please, have a handful!”, would you eat any at all?
The predatory men may be a tiny minority, but they are indistinguishable from the non-predatory men. They don’t wear a bell around their neck.
So women have to treat all strange men as though they are potentially predators until proven otherwise.
I'm a man. I've read history. I know about wars, slavery, massacres. I've dealt with murderers, rapists, abusers of all stripes. I *know* how dangerous men are. I *know* how a previously (apparently) harmless man can turn. I *know* that humanity is the most dangerous animal on this planet because of men.
However, I have also dealt with the kindest, loveliest men - and I like to regard myself in that category. The reality is that the former category mean that the latter category can never be given carte blanche. I know that even men cannot assume that a male stranger is safe. To think otherwise is foolhardy.
That “lite” faux dude has her face smushed against the funhouse mirror. The icky feeling she’s scrambling to snuff is only going to get worse. It’s called reality babe, and it’s going to win. You’ll lose your girlfriend and every friend on your rampage to force lies down their throats. You exhaust not only yourself but everyone in your path. Yet if you just surrender to reality things will get so much better. You’re not a man. That’s why you’re not a threat. See? Easy. You don’t need balls. You need humility.
It’s a small thing but I think this is the key quote right here: “...but I still don't feel gender the way most people do.”
These poor kids are being deluded into thinking that people “feel gender.” What does that even mean? No wonder they’re confused.
I don’t know what it feels like to be a woman, in some generic way, or to have (or not have) a gender. I know what it feels like to be me and absent the development of mind-meld technology, that’s the only “feeling like” experience I will ever know. I have no way of knowing how others experience feeling like themselves, just like I don’t know how others experience the color red or anything else. Sure, my biology means that I have had certain experiences that men will never have (though some are trying pretty hard) and there are certain things men can experience that I never will. But there are also plenty of men with whom I feel like I have more in common than I do with many women. None of this makes me “feel” any less (or more) of a woman. Being a woman, being female, is just a fact, not a feeling. And I claim no “gender” -- only the biological sex determined, irrevocably, when sperm met egg many decades ago.
I noticed that, too. The belief in a gender feeling, and that they are somehow special, different than everyone else in their particular flavor of this feeling. It’s irrational, and shocking that the idea of a “felt” gender is supported by the medical community as a basis for irreversible, pointless “treatments”. People have lost their minds.
As if anyone ever really knows how other people feel. Yes, these people have gone crazy.
This woman is too preoccupied with monitoring her victimhood status and how she’s perceived to consider the reality of violence against women. She has no thought about who might be on the receiving end of the threatening behavior she wants to be seen as capable of exhibiting, and what the reality of that experience would be. This is simply another thing she wants to wear to increase her sense of validity. This is not someone who has experienced violence, or is capable of or interested in understanding the reality of violence. This is an especially repugnant quality.
I have to wonder how whatever this is — narcissism? Pathological insecurity? — would manifest if trans wasn’t a thing. Is this ideology creating this neurotic behavior in what would otherwise be relatively well-adjusted people or would these people just gravitate to the next shiniest object to attach themselves to?
I think the personality disorder is already there and trans just fertilizes it. Not a psychologist but that cluster b type seems like the ticket. These are people who could whine to a room full of holocaust survivors that they have it real bad.
But you’re NOT a danger to women! You can’t overpower us! You can’t impregnate us! Men aren’t considered dangerous because they have masculine gender cooties, they’re considered dangerous because they have certain physical traits which you DON’T HAVE. Argh, sorry, this is just so crazy-making. Her gf should’ve stuck to her guns.
Male people pose a unique threat to female people, because male people are the only people who can forcibly impregnate female people against their will. How any of the people involved "identify" is irrelevant. Baffled that it's seen as transphobic to recognise this.
So nonsensical.
So narcissistic!
Imagine feeling entitled to micro-manage every single conversation because you're holding that identity card.
Great for people who like to sow discord.
It's also kinda funny in that it begs the question if there are skinny 5 foot 2 inch guys that feel emasculated for not being seen as threatening as other men, or a threat at all. Or what if the person referencing male violence only looked at a black guy in the room and ignored all the other guys who happened to be white, what then? Eliza's point that the rabbit hole of gender ideology really can take you to ridiculous stances is well illustrated in her example
A person really needs to step back and consider who they are if they need to be associated with violence against women in order to feel secure in their “true self” and good about their relationships with others and how others see them
These people need hobbies.
This *is* their hobby. Just like fanatical football fans, performing their fanaticism (right shirt, boots, posters, going to all the matches etc) is what they live for.
I have forgotten the name of the trans man who started to shoot up a school four-to-six months ago, but was killed before she could kill too many people. We'll be seeing more of those in the future -- trans men (like the one being quoted above) who are so determined to show the world that they are real men that they go on killing sprees or otherwise try to be scary. But you know, women have it in them to be pretty scary even without the testosterone. Perhaps five years ago I met a female college student renting an apartment one street over, and her behavior was so aggressive I avoided her every time I went down her street.
That would be Audrey/Aiden Hale. But IDK if she actually legally changed her name because most media outlets call her Audrey.
I'm simple. I would like to be identified as having a brain. The narcissism in those statements is astounding. How do they set aside their obsession with navel gazing long enough to pay the bills? Are all of them trust funders?
She was at risk as a woman, and she sought safety by trying to become one of the "predators" instead. When someone doesn't treat her as scary, it reminds her that she's really still part of the "prey."
"Putting trans men and cis men in different categories." You just did that! You just did that just now! Those are two different categories!
How about for a comment that this is just insane sounding and crazy making? Can you imagine going through life stuck on and consumed by this one aspect of your being? We have become a society unserious in nature and purpose, absorbed by the self when this is the conversation of the day.
Too much head spinning to read carefully. But apparently the TIF wants to be scary to women. Is that misogynistic or transmisogynistic? Just reading about the sit-down interrogation/apology/re-education session made my skin crawl. Hope the sane partner escapes the relationship soon.
If people got off the internet and spent time fishing, or hiking, or observing clouds, anything that is the antithesis of taking whatever is inside their heads and externalizing it for the entire world to attend to, then almost all of this nonsense would just disappear. There's real dysphoria, which deserves compassion and appropriate treatment, and then there's taking the insane contents of the mind and treating them as though they merit intense scrutiny and public debate. Nonsense, chatter, citta-vritis on display for all the world to see... it's such an awful time to be a human being.