A teenager hesitating on the precipice of transition asks r/detrans for advice: I'm 18, identify as a guy and have been out of the closet to most of the people I know for about 2 years. I'm pre-everything. I wasn't sa'd as a child nor am I autistic. The waitlists for any type of treatment for trans people are extremely long here, so I really didn't have a choice in waiting.
Mar 15, 2023·edited Mar 15, 2023Liked by Eliza Mondegreen
Thank you, this exchange was fascinating.
This morning I woke up thinking about a photo I saw yesterday of suffragettes on a demonstration: all wearing ground-length skirts and waisted jackets, over high-necked blouses, topped by elaborate hats and hairdos.
And thought about the "sexual revolution" in clothing where Western women have since been progressively undressed -- mainly by male designers -- but men's clothing remains basically unchanged.
When women's legs were progressively exposed, men's legs have remained hidden in long trousers -- as protection from the cold, in winter: while women wear chilly transparent, flesh-coloured tights.
When women wore mini-skirts in midwinter, men did not wear very brief shorts.
When women's necks, shoulders and arms are exposed on formal occasions, men still wear long-sleeved shirts with collars and ties under jackets. Yet women are more sensitive to cold then men: and require winter heating at a couple of degrees Celsius higher for the same comfort level.
A relaxation in male clothing in the tech industry has simply slid over to sports clothing, as very functional garb for ease of movement and protection from cold.
But Western women have by and large enthusuastically colluded with being stripped of clothing and sexually objectified for the male gaze: apparently without noticing, or finding reasons to reject, any idea that this could be at least partly responsible for the ways women are treated differently by men.
It has even, however incredibly, been considered by some feminists as part of women's "liberation": only true from a generational point of view, as freedom from constricting undergarments: I remember my grandmother's whalebone corsets (that she called "stays") which deformed women's internal organs to give them a fashionable hourglass shape.
This relentless emphasis on women's body shape and appearance is no longer an atavistic throwback to desirability for mating with a view to childbearing, but walking consumerist ads for recreational sex: simultaneously treated as a disqualifier for anything except menial work inside or outside the home. Where a business suit (or industrial safety garb) conversely stands in for superior earning ability as Head of the Household on a single wage basis, still reflected in what used to be called the "gender" pay gap.
After waking up from brainwashing that "women wear skirts" even including a short period of miniskirts, I have spent a lifetime wearing trousers (and occasionally a long skirt): damned if I'm going to be judged by any man for the shape of my legs. Especially working in a male-dominated profession that required me to visit building sites.
And then I read this:
" ... one thing that genuinely changed my outlook on my own transition was about a year ago, the first time that I dressed in very modest women's clothing-- floor length skirt, long-sleeve button up blouse and a vest. I was feminine but fully covered, with no accentuated curves; basically I felt like I looked like a woman, without feeling like an inherently sexualized being. The impact that had on me is something that I'm still wrapping my head around. I still wonder, if I had figured out prior to transition that I could in fact be a woman without having to wear tight clothes and be ogled by men, would I have made different choices re: my body and my gender presentation…"
The fashion and advertising industries have a lot to answer for: now joined by the medical industry in joint exploitation of people's fears and insecurities -- but especially those of women. What's new?
Oddly, I feel frustration and anger reading these posts. I am angry at all the people who call gender skeptics hateful, right-wing, ideological transphobes and the like. These posts are so kind, loving, honest, and compassionate. I am truly tired of all of the maligning misinformation directed towards some many kind souls.
Wow! I really admire the kindness and generosity of the person who responded, and I hope the questioner listens. The phrase "never treat a software problem at the hardware level" sums things up perfectly.
This is illuminating. Especially the bit about "mental gymnastics". If you find yourself performing mental gymnastics to persuade yourself into a course of action - stop and think!
I think this is the most important thing any girl considering transition could hear: "it is completely sane to hate being a woman in a woman hating world."
“Being recognised as a girl or woman, being called she, etc. makes me feel like I've been punched in the stomach, as well as not really responding to it; I don't feel addressed when someone speaks about me using she and her pronouns.”
1. So much of this girl’s happiness is being predicated on what others say about just one part of her identity. In any other situation, the foundation of therapy would be teaching a person not to make their mood dependent on what someone else says, that who they are comes from within, not from others. To have so much of your life riding and dependent on what pronouns someone uses and not all the other ways you can connect and interact with people seems so restricted and frightening. (That’s not saying that we dismiss how the words of others make us feel or pretend they have no impact, but we can’t hand over the remote control to others.)
2. I think about how Sasha and Stella on Gender: A Wider Lens podcast talk about helping young people broaden the lens of who they think they are - broaden far beyond gender. Jonathan Haidt, in his recent must-read article on why the mental health of liberal girls fell first and hardest talks about how Tumblr (and later sites) resulted in girls with very narrow, highly specific, and very fragile identity labels. It’s like the hashtags they copy and paste on every post or the string of emojis and labels Instagram bio becomes their only reality and way of understanding who they are.
3) It seems like transition success often depends more on temperament traits that determine how you reflexively respond to the constant work and mental load needed to maintain the new identity and deal with all the ways and times it doesn’t ideally work out as opposed to the amount of gender dysphoria present before or after transitioning.
Seeing comments that come from a place of love and genuine compassion rather than from a need to control the poster or project onto the poster says so much about the hard-won mental healthfulness of detransitioners. These comments really speak for themselves about what it looks like when someone develops a strong degree of self-acceptance. The energy of the comments are all expansive, and relaxed: “here’s my offering, do with it what you will, have you considered this? Take it if it’s helpful or leave it.” Just beautiful. And miles in the opposite direction of the trans subreddits I’ve been on.
This clinging to 'identities' ....... I'm thinking this is a very human anxiety leading to tribal and self-obsession and inevitable exploitation and other harms - instead of learning wisdom and acceptance, courage and even joy in the face of the often harsh facts of life. Not surprising, though - doesn't a whole advertising industry depend on selling 'better' images of ourselves for the price of the product?
I am suggesting 'gender ID' is yet another delusory method humans turn to when dealing with the difficult task of finding meaning and purpose in the face of impermanence, uncertainty and competition for resources, suffering and injustice etc amongst other humans; that there *is* no 'real identity' - there *is* no 'ghost in the machine' of the brain .... we are human beings with human sexed bodies and imposing a fixed 'ID' on ourselves or others based only on feelings influenced by unproven theories means buying into a dangerous narcissistic religion.
In response to the stories of trans widows, ex-wives of men who cross-dress 24/7 and suddenly claim they are the 'mothers' of the children too, I've now gotten messages from young adults who say they have 8 individuals from a friend circle who suddenly say they're 'trans." These young people would like my Ute Heggen youtube channel to be their voice, along with us ex-wives, because they see the falseness and cult characteristics, but also feel silenced. In general they find it easier to back away from the newly demanding friends. They find it hard to contemplate the potential physical damage their former friends are doing to themselves with pills, injections and hormones. They just do not have the ability to cope with the demands of the ideology.
Of course it’s a UNIVERSAL (or close to) problem for “trans” people who want to date/ have a real relationship/get married! Gay men want men with a penis (real not faux) and straight men want a woman with a vagina ( again, real not faux).
Thank you for putting this together- fascinating exchanges but not surprising when people can be HONEST!
This is just incredible. I wish I could share it with my son who's decided he's a woman and assumes this requires all of the medical, and a sexy outcome. He won't talk to me, though, so, I cannot, and just wish and wish.
What I tend to see with this girls that want to become boys is that they are rejecting womanhood for several reasons but both ironically tied to feminism.
1: They lived in a world where girls are told consistently we are oppressed and our life sucks, motherhood is draining and a lot of work, and men get it all anyways.. you won't make us much, you wont be looked up to, etc. .
2: They live in a world where women are constantly sexualized, even little girls... and they are trying to escape that..
They think being a man will somehow change all of this and to some extent it alleviates some of this pain but they can never can quite attain it for all the reasons stated. Also, identifying as a male just brings a host of new problems (social or medical transition):
1) You will ostracize yourself into a world of only like-minded people. People may placate you to be nice... but The majority of gay men and majority of straight men will not want to date you. You'll be left with a very small dating pool. The people that share your life experiences will be very very small.
2) Your happiness day to day will depend on how much you pass as the opposite sex, and you'll be focused on how other people perceive you, and deep down you are living in fear that people will see the truth. This is not the way to live your life.
3) If you choose drugs/surgery you are doing physical harm to your body in many ways. From sterilization, to much more severe ones like endless bacteria infections etc. You'll be on these drugs for the rest of your life once you destroy your body enough.
4) It will likely prevent you from seeking out the co-mental health problems that lead you down this road to begin with
This ideology hurts those wrapped up in it the most. Instead of giving positive messages like, you belong with people with your sex and all the things that are great about being a woman, and all the wonderful things that come with being a mother... instead of telling them you dont have to be an object.. there are so many healthy paths to womanhood, but our society/media shows women that there is not.. and being a woman is supposed to suck. I felt all this myself... it took me years to come to terms with it and motherhood was when I felt most connected to women, there was something so deep and spiritual about it. I felt connected to something greater than myself and all these other women shared that with me.
We are no longer celebrating WOMEN we are celebrating only the women that seem to accomplish things that we used to discuss about MEN. We are disparaging all the amazing parts to being a woman that are unique to us. Now its baaaaad to want to devote yourself to your children, there is nothing more fulfilling then raising the next generation. We should be focusing on the unique qualities that make womanhood great, and its not wearing a pretty dress to make boys gawk.
Im retired and not on rwitter, and doubt this info will be much help on the tax questions you posed there. so sorry for going off topic. but here goes.
I very much doubt you will owe much or even any US income tax while living or working in Canada. But its really important to FILE your returns and not just income tax returns but Fatco (or is it Fatca.) returns declaring any foreign bank accounts you have. That might get you in more trouble than income taxes if you fail to file.
Working and living abroad you get a really big exemption or standard deduction type thing before you even start owing tax. Then you get a foreign tax credit (FTC). So lets say your taxes in Canada are $5000, but if all of the income taxed under US taxes is $5100, then you get a $5000 FTC and you pay uncle sam $100. If your US tax is $4900 then you apply $4900 of your FTC to this year’s taxes and you get to carry the remaining $100 FTC to next year (if you need it). Most likely Canadian taxes are higher so you wont owe US taxes. But you dont get any ftc until you file a return and claim it. If you lived in a low tax country like the Caymans, then you would pay a small amount of tax to that country which would get you a small FTC and a big US tax bill.
Yourmain hassle and expense will be finding a preparer or doing it yourself.
I assume you have asked around your school among other US students or profs how they do it or what resources they know of.
Thank you, this exchange was fascinating.
This morning I woke up thinking about a photo I saw yesterday of suffragettes on a demonstration: all wearing ground-length skirts and waisted jackets, over high-necked blouses, topped by elaborate hats and hairdos.
And thought about the "sexual revolution" in clothing where Western women have since been progressively undressed -- mainly by male designers -- but men's clothing remains basically unchanged.
When women's legs were progressively exposed, men's legs have remained hidden in long trousers -- as protection from the cold, in winter: while women wear chilly transparent, flesh-coloured tights.
When women wore mini-skirts in midwinter, men did not wear very brief shorts.
When women's necks, shoulders and arms are exposed on formal occasions, men still wear long-sleeved shirts with collars and ties under jackets. Yet women are more sensitive to cold then men: and require winter heating at a couple of degrees Celsius higher for the same comfort level.
A relaxation in male clothing in the tech industry has simply slid over to sports clothing, as very functional garb for ease of movement and protection from cold.
But Western women have by and large enthusuastically colluded with being stripped of clothing and sexually objectified for the male gaze: apparently without noticing, or finding reasons to reject, any idea that this could be at least partly responsible for the ways women are treated differently by men.
It has even, however incredibly, been considered by some feminists as part of women's "liberation": only true from a generational point of view, as freedom from constricting undergarments: I remember my grandmother's whalebone corsets (that she called "stays") which deformed women's internal organs to give them a fashionable hourglass shape.
This relentless emphasis on women's body shape and appearance is no longer an atavistic throwback to desirability for mating with a view to childbearing, but walking consumerist ads for recreational sex: simultaneously treated as a disqualifier for anything except menial work inside or outside the home. Where a business suit (or industrial safety garb) conversely stands in for superior earning ability as Head of the Household on a single wage basis, still reflected in what used to be called the "gender" pay gap.
After waking up from brainwashing that "women wear skirts" even including a short period of miniskirts, I have spent a lifetime wearing trousers (and occasionally a long skirt): damned if I'm going to be judged by any man for the shape of my legs. Especially working in a male-dominated profession that required me to visit building sites.
And then I read this:
" ... one thing that genuinely changed my outlook on my own transition was about a year ago, the first time that I dressed in very modest women's clothing-- floor length skirt, long-sleeve button up blouse and a vest. I was feminine but fully covered, with no accentuated curves; basically I felt like I looked like a woman, without feeling like an inherently sexualized being. The impact that had on me is something that I'm still wrapping my head around. I still wonder, if I had figured out prior to transition that I could in fact be a woman without having to wear tight clothes and be ogled by men, would I have made different choices re: my body and my gender presentation…"
The fashion and advertising industries have a lot to answer for: now joined by the medical industry in joint exploitation of people's fears and insecurities -- but especially those of women. What's new?
Oddly, I feel frustration and anger reading these posts. I am angry at all the people who call gender skeptics hateful, right-wing, ideological transphobes and the like. These posts are so kind, loving, honest, and compassionate. I am truly tired of all of the maligning misinformation directed towards some many kind souls.
Yes, 'change everything about yourself to become your true self' sounds absolutely bonkers 😳
Wow this piece is really powerful. What eloquent and helpful feedback. I hope she listened!
Wow! I really admire the kindness and generosity of the person who responded, and I hope the questioner listens. The phrase "never treat a software problem at the hardware level" sums things up perfectly.
This is illuminating. Especially the bit about "mental gymnastics". If you find yourself performing mental gymnastics to persuade yourself into a course of action - stop and think!
I think this is the most important thing any girl considering transition could hear: "it is completely sane to hate being a woman in a woman hating world."
Wow. There is so much going on here:
“Being recognised as a girl or woman, being called she, etc. makes me feel like I've been punched in the stomach, as well as not really responding to it; I don't feel addressed when someone speaks about me using she and her pronouns.”
1. So much of this girl’s happiness is being predicated on what others say about just one part of her identity. In any other situation, the foundation of therapy would be teaching a person not to make their mood dependent on what someone else says, that who they are comes from within, not from others. To have so much of your life riding and dependent on what pronouns someone uses and not all the other ways you can connect and interact with people seems so restricted and frightening. (That’s not saying that we dismiss how the words of others make us feel or pretend they have no impact, but we can’t hand over the remote control to others.)
2. I think about how Sasha and Stella on Gender: A Wider Lens podcast talk about helping young people broaden the lens of who they think they are - broaden far beyond gender. Jonathan Haidt, in his recent must-read article on why the mental health of liberal girls fell first and hardest talks about how Tumblr (and later sites) resulted in girls with very narrow, highly specific, and very fragile identity labels. It’s like the hashtags they copy and paste on every post or the string of emojis and labels Instagram bio becomes their only reality and way of understanding who they are.
3) It seems like transition success often depends more on temperament traits that determine how you reflexively respond to the constant work and mental load needed to maintain the new identity and deal with all the ways and times it doesn’t ideally work out as opposed to the amount of gender dysphoria present before or after transitioning.
Seeing comments that come from a place of love and genuine compassion rather than from a need to control the poster or project onto the poster says so much about the hard-won mental healthfulness of detransitioners. These comments really speak for themselves about what it looks like when someone develops a strong degree of self-acceptance. The energy of the comments are all expansive, and relaxed: “here’s my offering, do with it what you will, have you considered this? Take it if it’s helpful or leave it.” Just beautiful. And miles in the opposite direction of the trans subreddits I’ve been on.
This clinging to 'identities' ....... I'm thinking this is a very human anxiety leading to tribal and self-obsession and inevitable exploitation and other harms - instead of learning wisdom and acceptance, courage and even joy in the face of the often harsh facts of life. Not surprising, though - doesn't a whole advertising industry depend on selling 'better' images of ourselves for the price of the product?
I am suggesting 'gender ID' is yet another delusory method humans turn to when dealing with the difficult task of finding meaning and purpose in the face of impermanence, uncertainty and competition for resources, suffering and injustice etc amongst other humans; that there *is* no 'real identity' - there *is* no 'ghost in the machine' of the brain .... we are human beings with human sexed bodies and imposing a fixed 'ID' on ourselves or others based only on feelings influenced by unproven theories means buying into a dangerous narcissistic religion.
In response to the stories of trans widows, ex-wives of men who cross-dress 24/7 and suddenly claim they are the 'mothers' of the children too, I've now gotten messages from young adults who say they have 8 individuals from a friend circle who suddenly say they're 'trans." These young people would like my Ute Heggen youtube channel to be their voice, along with us ex-wives, because they see the falseness and cult characteristics, but also feel silenced. In general they find it easier to back away from the newly demanding friends. They find it hard to contemplate the potential physical damage their former friends are doing to themselves with pills, injections and hormones. They just do not have the ability to cope with the demands of the ideology.
Of course it’s a UNIVERSAL (or close to) problem for “trans” people who want to date/ have a real relationship/get married! Gay men want men with a penis (real not faux) and straight men want a woman with a vagina ( again, real not faux).
Thank you for putting this together- fascinating exchanges but not surprising when people can be HONEST!
This is just incredible. I wish I could share it with my son who's decided he's a woman and assumes this requires all of the medical, and a sexy outcome. He won't talk to me, though, so, I cannot, and just wish and wish.
What I tend to see with this girls that want to become boys is that they are rejecting womanhood for several reasons but both ironically tied to feminism.
1: They lived in a world where girls are told consistently we are oppressed and our life sucks, motherhood is draining and a lot of work, and men get it all anyways.. you won't make us much, you wont be looked up to, etc. .
2: They live in a world where women are constantly sexualized, even little girls... and they are trying to escape that..
They think being a man will somehow change all of this and to some extent it alleviates some of this pain but they can never can quite attain it for all the reasons stated. Also, identifying as a male just brings a host of new problems (social or medical transition):
1) You will ostracize yourself into a world of only like-minded people. People may placate you to be nice... but The majority of gay men and majority of straight men will not want to date you. You'll be left with a very small dating pool. The people that share your life experiences will be very very small.
2) Your happiness day to day will depend on how much you pass as the opposite sex, and you'll be focused on how other people perceive you, and deep down you are living in fear that people will see the truth. This is not the way to live your life.
3) If you choose drugs/surgery you are doing physical harm to your body in many ways. From sterilization, to much more severe ones like endless bacteria infections etc. You'll be on these drugs for the rest of your life once you destroy your body enough.
4) It will likely prevent you from seeking out the co-mental health problems that lead you down this road to begin with
This ideology hurts those wrapped up in it the most. Instead of giving positive messages like, you belong with people with your sex and all the things that are great about being a woman, and all the wonderful things that come with being a mother... instead of telling them you dont have to be an object.. there are so many healthy paths to womanhood, but our society/media shows women that there is not.. and being a woman is supposed to suck. I felt all this myself... it took me years to come to terms with it and motherhood was when I felt most connected to women, there was something so deep and spiritual about it. I felt connected to something greater than myself and all these other women shared that with me.
We are no longer celebrating WOMEN we are celebrating only the women that seem to accomplish things that we used to discuss about MEN. We are disparaging all the amazing parts to being a woman that are unique to us. Now its baaaaad to want to devote yourself to your children, there is nothing more fulfilling then raising the next generation. We should be focusing on the unique qualities that make womanhood great, and its not wearing a pretty dress to make boys gawk.
"it is completely sane to hate being a woman in a woman hating world"
That sums it up for me.
Im retired and not on rwitter, and doubt this info will be much help on the tax questions you posed there. so sorry for going off topic. but here goes.
I very much doubt you will owe much or even any US income tax while living or working in Canada. But its really important to FILE your returns and not just income tax returns but Fatco (or is it Fatca.) returns declaring any foreign bank accounts you have. That might get you in more trouble than income taxes if you fail to file.
Working and living abroad you get a really big exemption or standard deduction type thing before you even start owing tax. Then you get a foreign tax credit (FTC). So lets say your taxes in Canada are $5000, but if all of the income taxed under US taxes is $5100, then you get a $5000 FTC and you pay uncle sam $100. If your US tax is $4900 then you apply $4900 of your FTC to this year’s taxes and you get to carry the remaining $100 FTC to next year (if you need it). Most likely Canadian taxes are higher so you wont owe US taxes. But you dont get any ftc until you file a return and claim it. If you lived in a low tax country like the Caymans, then you would pay a small amount of tax to that country which would get you a small FTC and a big US tax bill.
Yourmain hassle and expense will be finding a preparer or doing it yourself.
I assume you have asked around your school among other US students or profs how they do it or what resources they know of.