This quote...I just can’t. It feels like a kick in the gut reading it. Please, Florence Ashley, step out of your bubble, come down from your ivory tower, and sit down with my desisted ROGD child who used this “coping mechanism” during her early teens mental health crisis. I want Florence Ashley to spend actual real life, face-to-face time watching her cry, listening to her rage about the mental health professionals that she trusted who decided to cheer on and encourage her “maladaptive coping mechanism” with lies and lessons on deception and how to “maladaptively cope” instead of giving her proper mental healthcare and helping her build relationships built on trust and honesty. Let Florence Ashley spend some of her days and sleepless nights trying to figure out how to support a teen girl traumatized by the maladaptive coping strategy and social contagion she hypothesizes is a good thing while she sits in her little bubble and never actually deals with the pain and the consequences of her ideas. There was nothing “healthy” about it. Florence Ashley doesn’t have to live even one single moment with the pain, the harm, and the trauma she causes with her flippant little ideas about this. Would she even bother listening to one of those kids she hurt? It makes me want to scream seeing the people who promote the harm that caused my child - my entire family - so much trauma go to such ridiculous and extreme ends to dismiss it, to refuse to see it. Florence Ashley can f- off
“Let us assume, for a moment, that there is indeed a new subgroup of youth who, having experienced trauma and mental illness, come to believe themselves to be trans as a maladaptive coping mechanism. It would not follow that social and/or medical transition is unethical or harmful…Even if it were the case that for some people believing oneself transgender is a coping mechanism brought on by trauma, transition may still be indicated. If the rise in transgender identities evidences social contagion – a claim I have shown to be unsubstantiated – it may yet be a healthy contagion.”
Worth noting "Florence" is a man who identifies as a woman. Everything he says should be taken with the knowledge he is sacrificing kids to conceal and legitimize his fetish.
Sigh...I’m not surprised. Pretty pathetic to need the most vulnerable and traumatized young people around you to maladaptively take on your identity in order to feel secure in your “true self.”
It is a crazy approach!!! By her theory any coping mechanism is ok. Would you tell a sexually abused girl who is acting out by using drugs and being promiscuous (common behaviors by victimized young women) that those coping mechanisms are healthy?!? Of course not. A good therapist would explore the discomfort and pain to help the person feel better about themselves. I can’t understand this blind chasm in therapy! You and your family have been so hurt!!
You have to understand that for the "Florence Ashley"s of the world, more misery only makes them feel better and they would be thrilled if we went full Moloch and just lined up all children to have their genitals sacrificed on an altar. They are filled with so much shame and self-loathing that societywide mass psychosis feels good to them (anything is good that makes them feel like less of an unfuckable freak).
I read this recently in a book about 19th-century Communists but I think the same idea applies to Gendermania: "What we demand is not that all should be happy, but that all should be as unhappy as we are."
Whole bunch of "gender-affirmation" "doctors" who deserve to lose their licenses. Getting tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail is probably too good for them.
A lot of the activists also keep bringing up that " the "same tired group of detransitioners" are trotted out because there really aren't many. They also say destransitioners are " love-bombed" , it is a social contagion, cult, etc. Pretty much using same words gender critical use for gender ideology.......I just wish it would all stop and people could get real help for their truly maladaptive coping mechanisms. If you bring some of the arguments to their full logical conclusion society would become a free for all of people doing whatever feels good to them at any time or place without any consequences.
I actually see a new concerning trend among my daughter's friends. They are actually very non-judgmental toward detransitioners (as long as they remain allies). The whole attitude is that it's no big deal . Like, yeah, you did T for a couple of years... cool. You decided it's not for you... Cool again. They are so nonchalant about it, like it was a bad haircut or something. I think they can't deny anymore that there are a lot of detransitioners so they are readjusting their views ever so slightly.
I'm currently reading the book: "The Incel Rebellion: The Rise of the Manosphere and the Virtual War Against Women (Emerald Studies In Digital Crime, Technology and Social Harms) by researcher Lisa Sugiura. I couldn't help but notice that one aspect of the the Incel phenomenon she encountered in her research parallels the ROSD concept. That is that there is a segment of adolescent and young adult population males who are clearly experiencing what would be considered "normative" anxieties, frustrations, insecurities and depressions related to the challenges of what constitutes a - "normal adolescence" in the West - who after encountering the online Incel forums and spending time on them come to find the misogynistic Incel philosophy being promoted on those forums offers them a comforting - "explanation" - for what are very often the common emotional turbulences of normal male adolescence. The emotional and psychological vulnerability of adolescents of both sexes clearly puts them at risk for absorbing the sort of - "explanations" for their discomfort - that online forums dedicated to promoting both trans and Incel ideological positions offer them.
I used to scroll r/incel back before it was banned, and I completely agree with you re: the parallels between the incel community and ROGD AYAs. “It’s over” is a now common phrase-meme that I suspect originated in the incel community; it operates in the same way “you’re trans!” does amongst ROGDs. Both lifestyles beget a conclusion that everything that is wrong with one’s life is fated and inevitable. The main difference is that inceldom is a lifestyle of giving up, whereas ROGD is a lifestyle of chasing the stars. The incel-to-trans pipeline makes sense in this context; same “you’re with us or you’re against us” mentality, different personality profiles. I can see how men who don’t have the dispositions to succumb to incel doomerism find themselves wooed by the surface positivity of transgenderism.
Thank you for sharing your observations Elyse. That "you're with us or you're against us" mentality clearly is used to keep any new information at bay - preventing the entry of any new material that could cause cognitive dissonance by challenging the "official" Incel or Trans ideological "explanations" for one's discomfort and suffering.
Meanwhile some of these dudes are getting into crossdressing from the pornography they watch! Then they go to a "therapist" with a "degree" from an online "affirmation therapy program" who is basically a recruiter for the wealthy surgeons. In this link, I'm reporting it to a regulating agency. Listen to the guy sigh. I'm sure it went nowhere, but the lack of press for this is stunning.
I am reading that book on Incels in large part seeking to understand if some of these adult men who suddenly declare as trans and remain completely biologically intact, yet now "identify" as both female and also as a "lesbian" no less - might in fact be refugees from the Incel communities. The level of misogynistic hatred of women exhibited by these newly minted "trans-women" - when denied sexual access to women on lesbian dating web sites - just somehow feels so close to the open often violent misogyny expressed in some of the Incel communities. I can't help but wonder if suddenly magically transforming into a "lesbian" might be some new Incel method or strategy for sexually accessing women's bodies - while still "hating" women. : /
I think you are spot on. Here's the link to Kellie Jay Keen's call in show, where I'm on at the 1 hour point. She comments that psychopaths take on the persona of others, because they have no secure identity. They "body snatch" others.
I finally had the chance to listen to your questions and comments with Kellie JK Ute. That was a very important and beautiful conversation. It mirrors many dynamics that many parents are experiencing in relation to one of their children suddenly identifying as trans - where parents cannot even attempt to compassionately question "trans" without rejection and anger and even the relationship ending. I loved where you came to in that conversation with KJK where your own knowledge of the medical risks of transitioning gives you space to share truthfully with your friend without necessarily having to directly challenge the "ideological" aspects of your friend's identity. That seems a healthy and compassionate place to be able to approach your friendship, at least from my perspective.
Thanks . I think you might have listened to the next comment from the friend of a lesbian. Kellie Jay and I discussed my data from over 50 trans widows and the violence from these men who've taken on a female persona. The data I didn't manage to work in was that the children these men fathered have a too high rate of suicidal ideation and anxiety/depression, because having your father force you to lie to everyone and yourself about who he is represents a soul-crushing totalitarianism. Here's a link to my recent interview with Tammy Peterson, wife of Dr. Jordan Peterson, the great defender of free speech & truth.
Thank you Ute. You're right. I probably started listening just after your interview had ended. I will go back to that interview and also listen to your interview with Ms. Peterson. I'm very interested to hear about your data from trans widows. I see NO information it seems anywhere on the issues facing and surrounding trans widows.
This is correct. The psychologists/psychiatrists never did any separate, independent studies on the effects for the family, when a father starts ideating a female persona, claiming he's a member of the most oppressed class in history. They did not keep the wives in the loop, protecting themselves from the knowledge that these men are coercing their wives in bed, lying to children who feel deceived and abandoned. They often spend all the money, and the children's mothers have to scrounge for basic needs while hubby spends all the money on make-up, electrolysis, expensive accessories. They are stuck in the hive-mind the therapists sanction. How it is that these therapists, who have been trained in the socio-economic ramifications for families after divorce, do not recognize that the children and ex-wife are facing a seriously lowered standard of living is beyond my comprehension. I had training in this during my education masters. Thanks for your interest. My blog, uteheggengrasswidow.wordpress.com has many reposted articles from detransitioners and families who've been devastated by this cult.
Thank you for sharing your blog site Ute. I just signed up to follow you there and I'll go back and read the articles there to catch up as I can over the coming weeks. As a 71 year old retired licensed clinical social worker who spent years providing group and individual therapy as part of my practice - I truly cannot believe how the practice of therapy has been so completely and credulously captured by the trans ideology since my retirement in 2014. If anyone had told me at that time that time that had I continued to work another 5 years I would probably have been sanctioned and perhaps had my license revoked for refusing to let ideology over-ride my critical thinking skills.
As I continue to educate myself on these topics I notice that those of us who are looking critically at what is happening form a sort of motley coalition in that we are very diverse people across the political and religious spectrum from diverse backgrounds united specifically by our concerns regarding the devastation being wrought by the government/corporate/media supported embrace and promotion of gender ideology.
It seems that slowly over the last year and a half that I have been following these issues and educating myself that I can identify ever more additions to the voices expressing concern. From women in general and their concerns for maintaining their "safe spaces" and the integrity of women's sports, to lesbians who are kicked off of lesbian dating sites and labels transphobic bigots for refusing to date biologically intact males who "identify as lesbian," to de-transitioners, to the parents of adolescent's suddenly identifying as trans, to gay men and lesbians concerned that the newly embraced "affirmation only" approach to expressed gender dysphoria is the new "conversation therapy" literally changing the sex of adolescents who in the past would identified as gay or lesbian once they reached adulthood, to therapists who are challenging the changes being imposed by their licensing bodies and continuing education requirements, to finally the group that you represent Ute, trans-widows, which I am sad to say I was quite simply not at all tuned into and aware of until I encountered your comments at other sites.
I'm not sure how we synergize the great energy and intelligence of all these disparate groups - though I think there is potentially great power in this coalition - but I think it is certainly clear that the the voices of trans-widows must become more prominent in discussions and forums going forward. I appreciate that my eyes are being opened to the plight of trans-widows and their families thanks to your work Ute. Thank you.
Thanks! Parents in California are working to get initiatives on the ballot to counter the "trans sanctuary" nonsense the far left legislature just passed. The reason you haven't heard of our struggles is that we've been silenced. Try Lime Soda Films YT channel for a trailer of Behind the Looking Glass, profiling 18 of us. Our ex-husbands lurk on social media platforms and then take us back to court if we say something under our own names, they alienate our children and they claim falsely that we've been violent towards them. All classic psychopathic narcissistic behavior. They seek to ritually condition and manipulate everyone so they can coerce speech and operate with no boundaries. Here's my little sermon from today, with mysterious hanging leaf in the background:
When it became less expensive to prescribe Prozac instead of therapy, the slippery slope of drugging any discomfort instead of laboriously exploring meaning and root causes began in earnest. And here we are.
Talk therapy takes time, and there isn't much money in it. Insurers, physicians, and even therapists prefer highly costly, quick solutions like surgery and drugs.
For decades, our health care system has been on the trajectory of denying anything that doesn't make a quick buck.
To be ethical, Florence Ashley should disclose that he is transgender so that readers can take that into consideration when evaluating his findings and conclusions.
Medicine is for when something is wrong with your body. To say there's nothing wrong with someone, but also they need massive medical intervention to not die, is another level of insidiousness.
This quote...I just can’t. It feels like a kick in the gut reading it. Please, Florence Ashley, step out of your bubble, come down from your ivory tower, and sit down with my desisted ROGD child who used this “coping mechanism” during her early teens mental health crisis. I want Florence Ashley to spend actual real life, face-to-face time watching her cry, listening to her rage about the mental health professionals that she trusted who decided to cheer on and encourage her “maladaptive coping mechanism” with lies and lessons on deception and how to “maladaptively cope” instead of giving her proper mental healthcare and helping her build relationships built on trust and honesty. Let Florence Ashley spend some of her days and sleepless nights trying to figure out how to support a teen girl traumatized by the maladaptive coping strategy and social contagion she hypothesizes is a good thing while she sits in her little bubble and never actually deals with the pain and the consequences of her ideas. There was nothing “healthy” about it. Florence Ashley doesn’t have to live even one single moment with the pain, the harm, and the trauma she causes with her flippant little ideas about this. Would she even bother listening to one of those kids she hurt? It makes me want to scream seeing the people who promote the harm that caused my child - my entire family - so much trauma go to such ridiculous and extreme ends to dismiss it, to refuse to see it. Florence Ashley can f- off
“Let us assume, for a moment, that there is indeed a new subgroup of youth who, having experienced trauma and mental illness, come to believe themselves to be trans as a maladaptive coping mechanism. It would not follow that social and/or medical transition is unethical or harmful…Even if it were the case that for some people believing oneself transgender is a coping mechanism brought on by trauma, transition may still be indicated. If the rise in transgender identities evidences social contagion – a claim I have shown to be unsubstantiated – it may yet be a healthy contagion.”
Worth noting "Florence" is a man who identifies as a woman. Everything he says should be taken with the knowledge he is sacrificing kids to conceal and legitimize his fetish.
Sigh...I’m not surprised. Pretty pathetic to need the most vulnerable and traumatized young people around you to maladaptively take on your identity in order to feel secure in your “true self.”
he is a vile creep
It is a crazy approach!!! By her theory any coping mechanism is ok. Would you tell a sexually abused girl who is acting out by using drugs and being promiscuous (common behaviors by victimized young women) that those coping mechanisms are healthy?!? Of course not. A good therapist would explore the discomfort and pain to help the person feel better about themselves. I can’t understand this blind chasm in therapy! You and your family have been so hurt!!
-It’s definitely not a social contagion
-But if it is, that's a good thing
You have to understand that for the "Florence Ashley"s of the world, more misery only makes them feel better and they would be thrilled if we went full Moloch and just lined up all children to have their genitals sacrificed on an altar. They are filled with so much shame and self-loathing that societywide mass psychosis feels good to them (anything is good that makes them feel like less of an unfuckable freak).
I read this recently in a book about 19th-century Communists but I think the same idea applies to Gendermania: "What we demand is not that all should be happy, but that all should be as unhappy as we are."
Whole bunch of "gender-affirmation" "doctors" who deserve to lose their licenses. Getting tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail is probably too good for them.
A lot of the activists also keep bringing up that " the "same tired group of detransitioners" are trotted out because there really aren't many. They also say destransitioners are " love-bombed" , it is a social contagion, cult, etc. Pretty much using same words gender critical use for gender ideology.......I just wish it would all stop and people could get real help for their truly maladaptive coping mechanisms. If you bring some of the arguments to their full logical conclusion society would become a free for all of people doing whatever feels good to them at any time or place without any consequences.
I actually see a new concerning trend among my daughter's friends. They are actually very non-judgmental toward detransitioners (as long as they remain allies). The whole attitude is that it's no big deal . Like, yeah, you did T for a couple of years... cool. You decided it's not for you... Cool again. They are so nonchalant about it, like it was a bad haircut or something. I think they can't deny anymore that there are a lot of detransitioners so they are readjusting their views ever so slightly.
I've noticed this too and have been meaning to write about it.
I'm currently reading the book: "The Incel Rebellion: The Rise of the Manosphere and the Virtual War Against Women (Emerald Studies In Digital Crime, Technology and Social Harms) by researcher Lisa Sugiura. I couldn't help but notice that one aspect of the the Incel phenomenon she encountered in her research parallels the ROSD concept. That is that there is a segment of adolescent and young adult population males who are clearly experiencing what would be considered "normative" anxieties, frustrations, insecurities and depressions related to the challenges of what constitutes a - "normal adolescence" in the West - who after encountering the online Incel forums and spending time on them come to find the misogynistic Incel philosophy being promoted on those forums offers them a comforting - "explanation" - for what are very often the common emotional turbulences of normal male adolescence. The emotional and psychological vulnerability of adolescents of both sexes clearly puts them at risk for absorbing the sort of - "explanations" for their discomfort - that online forums dedicated to promoting both trans and Incel ideological positions offer them.
I used to scroll r/incel back before it was banned, and I completely agree with you re: the parallels between the incel community and ROGD AYAs. “It’s over” is a now common phrase-meme that I suspect originated in the incel community; it operates in the same way “you’re trans!” does amongst ROGDs. Both lifestyles beget a conclusion that everything that is wrong with one’s life is fated and inevitable. The main difference is that inceldom is a lifestyle of giving up, whereas ROGD is a lifestyle of chasing the stars. The incel-to-trans pipeline makes sense in this context; same “you’re with us or you’re against us” mentality, different personality profiles. I can see how men who don’t have the dispositions to succumb to incel doomerism find themselves wooed by the surface positivity of transgenderism.
Thank you for sharing your observations Elyse. That "you're with us or you're against us" mentality clearly is used to keep any new information at bay - preventing the entry of any new material that could cause cognitive dissonance by challenging the "official" Incel or Trans ideological "explanations" for one's discomfort and suffering.
Meanwhile some of these dudes are getting into crossdressing from the pornography they watch! Then they go to a "therapist" with a "degree" from an online "affirmation therapy program" who is basically a recruiter for the wealthy surgeons. In this link, I'm reporting it to a regulating agency. Listen to the guy sigh. I'm sure it went nowhere, but the lack of press for this is stunning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbnkYmyUGtY
I am reading that book on Incels in large part seeking to understand if some of these adult men who suddenly declare as trans and remain completely biologically intact, yet now "identify" as both female and also as a "lesbian" no less - might in fact be refugees from the Incel communities. The level of misogynistic hatred of women exhibited by these newly minted "trans-women" - when denied sexual access to women on lesbian dating web sites - just somehow feels so close to the open often violent misogyny expressed in some of the Incel communities. I can't help but wonder if suddenly magically transforming into a "lesbian" might be some new Incel method or strategy for sexually accessing women's bodies - while still "hating" women. : /
I think you are spot on. Here's the link to Kellie Jay Keen's call in show, where I'm on at the 1 hour point. She comments that psychopaths take on the persona of others, because they have no secure identity. They "body snatch" others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaEb2PZyjRA&t=4712s
Thank you for sharing the link Ute. I appreciate it.
Any time. More and more trans widows are starting to talk. The details are not pretty. Our husbands descended into madness.
I finally had the chance to listen to your questions and comments with Kellie JK Ute. That was a very important and beautiful conversation. It mirrors many dynamics that many parents are experiencing in relation to one of their children suddenly identifying as trans - where parents cannot even attempt to compassionately question "trans" without rejection and anger and even the relationship ending. I loved where you came to in that conversation with KJK where your own knowledge of the medical risks of transitioning gives you space to share truthfully with your friend without necessarily having to directly challenge the "ideological" aspects of your friend's identity. That seems a healthy and compassionate place to be able to approach your friendship, at least from my perspective.
Thanks . I think you might have listened to the next comment from the friend of a lesbian. Kellie Jay and I discussed my data from over 50 trans widows and the violence from these men who've taken on a female persona. The data I didn't manage to work in was that the children these men fathered have a too high rate of suicidal ideation and anxiety/depression, because having your father force you to lie to everyone and yourself about who he is represents a soul-crushing totalitarianism. Here's a link to my recent interview with Tammy Peterson, wife of Dr. Jordan Peterson, the great defender of free speech & truth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV9d7-ZXQW8&t=264s
Thank you Ute. You're right. I probably started listening just after your interview had ended. I will go back to that interview and also listen to your interview with Ms. Peterson. I'm very interested to hear about your data from trans widows. I see NO information it seems anywhere on the issues facing and surrounding trans widows.
This is correct. The psychologists/psychiatrists never did any separate, independent studies on the effects for the family, when a father starts ideating a female persona, claiming he's a member of the most oppressed class in history. They did not keep the wives in the loop, protecting themselves from the knowledge that these men are coercing their wives in bed, lying to children who feel deceived and abandoned. They often spend all the money, and the children's mothers have to scrounge for basic needs while hubby spends all the money on make-up, electrolysis, expensive accessories. They are stuck in the hive-mind the therapists sanction. How it is that these therapists, who have been trained in the socio-economic ramifications for families after divorce, do not recognize that the children and ex-wife are facing a seriously lowered standard of living is beyond my comprehension. I had training in this during my education masters. Thanks for your interest. My blog, uteheggengrasswidow.wordpress.com has many reposted articles from detransitioners and families who've been devastated by this cult.
Thank you for sharing your blog site Ute. I just signed up to follow you there and I'll go back and read the articles there to catch up as I can over the coming weeks. As a 71 year old retired licensed clinical social worker who spent years providing group and individual therapy as part of my practice - I truly cannot believe how the practice of therapy has been so completely and credulously captured by the trans ideology since my retirement in 2014. If anyone had told me at that time that time that had I continued to work another 5 years I would probably have been sanctioned and perhaps had my license revoked for refusing to let ideology over-ride my critical thinking skills.
As I continue to educate myself on these topics I notice that those of us who are looking critically at what is happening form a sort of motley coalition in that we are very diverse people across the political and religious spectrum from diverse backgrounds united specifically by our concerns regarding the devastation being wrought by the government/corporate/media supported embrace and promotion of gender ideology.
It seems that slowly over the last year and a half that I have been following these issues and educating myself that I can identify ever more additions to the voices expressing concern. From women in general and their concerns for maintaining their "safe spaces" and the integrity of women's sports, to lesbians who are kicked off of lesbian dating sites and labels transphobic bigots for refusing to date biologically intact males who "identify as lesbian," to de-transitioners, to the parents of adolescent's suddenly identifying as trans, to gay men and lesbians concerned that the newly embraced "affirmation only" approach to expressed gender dysphoria is the new "conversation therapy" literally changing the sex of adolescents who in the past would identified as gay or lesbian once they reached adulthood, to therapists who are challenging the changes being imposed by their licensing bodies and continuing education requirements, to finally the group that you represent Ute, trans-widows, which I am sad to say I was quite simply not at all tuned into and aware of until I encountered your comments at other sites.
I'm not sure how we synergize the great energy and intelligence of all these disparate groups - though I think there is potentially great power in this coalition - but I think it is certainly clear that the the voices of trans-widows must become more prominent in discussions and forums going forward. I appreciate that my eyes are being opened to the plight of trans-widows and their families thanks to your work Ute. Thank you.
Thanks! Parents in California are working to get initiatives on the ballot to counter the "trans sanctuary" nonsense the far left legislature just passed. The reason you haven't heard of our struggles is that we've been silenced. Try Lime Soda Films YT channel for a trailer of Behind the Looking Glass, profiling 18 of us. Our ex-husbands lurk on social media platforms and then take us back to court if we say something under our own names, they alienate our children and they claim falsely that we've been violent towards them. All classic psychopathic narcissistic behavior. They seek to ritually condition and manipulate everyone so they can coerce speech and operate with no boundaries. Here's my little sermon from today, with mysterious hanging leaf in the background:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W578A8iXqU
How can a coping mechanism be maladaptive and yet also healthy??? Lol
How did therapy go so wrong?!? When did we encourage “coping mechanisms” as the solution instead of the traditional exploration of root causes?!?
When it became less expensive to prescribe Prozac instead of therapy, the slippery slope of drugging any discomfort instead of laboriously exploring meaning and root causes began in earnest. And here we are.
Talk therapy takes time, and there isn't much money in it. Insurers, physicians, and even therapists prefer highly costly, quick solutions like surgery and drugs.
For decades, our health care system has been on the trajectory of denying anything that doesn't make a quick buck.
To be ethical, Florence Ashley should disclose that he is transgender so that readers can take that into consideration when evaluating his findings and conclusions.
Yes, yes, yes! Masking an obvious bias.
Medicine is for when something is wrong with your body. To say there's nothing wrong with someone, but also they need massive medical intervention to not die, is another level of insidiousness.