This certainly feels true after being screamed at, pushed, physically blocked and verbally harassed by young, tall white men at Let Women Speak in NYC in November 2022.
Once again, amazing writing Eliza! As a parent who has lost their adult ‘child’ to the trans ‘cult’ I am interested in the piece where families become dangerous to them and part of the capitalist machine. I want to understand this better, I dearly want to be able to do something about it, mostly. I just love your ability to make these connections so clearly. You have a wonderful mind and an incredible gift.
'The real question is what young people need to break up with fanaticism and extremism altogether, not how to get them to shift from one form of extremism to another, more fashionable one.' - get them off the internet! rarrrr! hahah yeah.
It's pure misogyny, the only way white males can feel superior is to attack women. Bros before hos, even bro-chicks outrank women to the broholes. Incels and trancels are bros, and remind me ever so much of Rohm's SA, let's hope their Night of Long Knives happens soonest.
I saw my former husband go into this very odd, self-critical but narcissistic thought path 30 years ago. They find all sorts wrong with everyone else, but can't stand the appearance of their hands.
My small contribution as a trans widow, not wanting to think about the psychiatric illness but inevitably swamped with these memories and odd details sometimes, is a movement sequence for well-being. These teens must get offline and start moving!
I'm curious about the word "recruitment" here. It feels like these ideologies offer similar things, but I don't know that there's something as intentional as trying to pad the numbers going on. Plus it makes it sound more centralized than it is. Take the broader RW ecosystem -- it's just that, an ecosystem, with many nodes who are cults of personality. You know what I mean? If anything, there's a bit of gatekeeping w/n certain cliques that makes in-group membership feel "earned" even if in reality they aren't super discerning...
I would also extend this to gender-critical radical feminists who "peaked" as devout TRAs. If one fell for online ideologues' irrational claims and was convinced to posit them as self-evident and undebatable, she should question whether this could happen again. Radical feminists are nowhere near as culty as TRAs, but they rely on a very rigid model of reality, of which key pieces aren't very hard to falsify, and they hold certain taboos of thought, ideas never to be seriously entertained no matter their merit. As long as you hold "if this belief can offend a group of people, it's wrong and must be silenced," you'll be held back from exploring the whole truth; swapping a fight against "transphobic" thought for a fight against "misogynistic" thought doesn't change this thought-terminating tendency.
I recall being young and fiercely believing in something--not only to bond with my peers, but also because I thought I knew better than my elders. Once my mother said, “It’s more complicated than that.” That drew me up short because I thought I had all the answers: it’s black and white! No grays! Maybe harnessing that youthful intensity, in whatever direction, is key to these movements.
understand the hate group similarities, absolutely, but are there really people who have gone from neo-nazi to trans activist? From hating Jews to hating terfs? Or is the point that trans-activism now occupies a space for angry young men which was formerly filled by neo-nazism? It is an interesting idea. I think that one of the big risks that we face is rebuffing slurs about being ‘right-wing extremists’ for not embracing the gender ideology craziness. So being able to respond with ‘No, YOU are the right wing extremists’ would be a joy. Although ‘right’ and ‘left’ wing should really apply when we look at what is going on here.
As i understand you mean male trans identified people. I am a mother of 2 boys. i think it is important to deconstruct the environment they grow up in. And maybe its the case for both genders as there is a hypersexualisation and increasingly smaller gap to fit into the own gender. Hypermasculinity and hyperfemininity. Both are appalling. For the female perspective its the realisation of the objectification. For the male i imagine its the expectation to never ever exhibit female traits and to create as much distance to that as possible. So they start hating the females for the spaces they are permitted to occupy being soft, sensitive, sensual etc.. looking at it from the outside transidentified males display the perfomance of the femaleness they perceive with both lust and contempt side by side and with an illiteracy of femaleness that only comes with not being allowed to be soft, sensitive, emotional etc.. they are cut off and equally desperate to belong as much as to destroy it feels like. Where as trans identified females seem much less hateful in their perfomance.
my sons are still too young. But i would say i was suspicous enough of society that i created a distance between my private life versus what everybody else does or thinks is normal. I carefully choose the kindergardens and schools they go to and i am prepared to not only always watch what society wants them to believe and question it, i will step in. What i mean with stepping in is not genderideology per se but bullying. I do not tolerate any perceived norm to be an excuse for dehumanisation. Not by my sons and not by teachers or anybody else toward my sons. Conformity was never a goal in my family, but also never following ideologies. As i had bad experiences with both. But generally deconstructing the gender roles young people are subjected to in this society is a start in my opinion. Transideology can never be a solution to that though, because it has more to do with dissociaton than contemplation and inclusion.
Thank you so much for writing about this. I wonder if you might in the future consider focusing your laser insight upon another pipeline recently illuminated by Angus Fox in an article series for Quillette, When Sons Become Daughters, about high-IQ, awkward, seemingly non-autogynephile teenage boys who turn trans. It seems somewhat related to the autism-to-trans pipeline but perhaps not identical with it. https://quillette.com/tag/when-sons-become-daughters/
I think contrapoints has moments in her videos where she describes incel psychology and 4chan culture and if I am remembering correctly I think she mentions that she inhabited these spaces right before coming to terms with being trans. I think she even rationalizes this as repressing her true identity as trans before she was able to accept herself
This is a very interesting and thought-provoking essays. Brains are malleable, indeed, and they are so for a variety of reasons and under a variety of circumstances. It's also true that certain "personality characteristics" contribute to one's tendency to be shaped by social pressures. It makes sense to me that a susceptible person would be easily drawn drawn from one extreme ideology into another. Thank you for the interesting read, Frederick.
"Self-contempt produces in man 'the most unjust and criminal passions imaginable..."
Agreed.
I'm tempted to say they need therapy but not therapy that allows them to use an identity to avoid taking a good hard look at themselves, therapy that will help them cut through the bullshit and actually heal. But who knows how open they'd even be to something like that -- not likely, I imagine. So... maybe one of those programs where they have to survive in the wilderness -- anything to challenge them to grow the hell up.
No one is fanatical about atheism. Unless you mean those of us who refuse to sit back and watch as the religious attempt to legislate their worldview onto the rest of us. Some of us are vocal AF but, really, the only thing atheism tells you about a person is they reject the notion of all the gods.
Atheists do have a belief that there is no god- so in a sense, that is similar to the belief of religious people. (Agnostic would be not having any belief either way, because they don't know)
I don't want to sound pedantic here. But I can see a parallel between 'I believe in God' and 'I believe there is no God' -because neither view can be proved. I am Atheist, but I cannot definitively prove anything....
The Nazi to trans pipeline is one of the finest demonstrations of horseshoe theory.
Please don't automatically associate skinheads with racism.
??
???
This certainly feels true after being screamed at, pushed, physically blocked and verbally harassed by young, tall white men at Let Women Speak in NYC in November 2022.
Once again, amazing writing Eliza! As a parent who has lost their adult ‘child’ to the trans ‘cult’ I am interested in the piece where families become dangerous to them and part of the capitalist machine. I want to understand this better, I dearly want to be able to do something about it, mostly. I just love your ability to make these connections so clearly. You have a wonderful mind and an incredible gift.
'The real question is what young people need to break up with fanaticism and extremism altogether, not how to get them to shift from one form of extremism to another, more fashionable one.' - get them off the internet! rarrrr! hahah yeah.
It's pure misogyny, the only way white males can feel superior is to attack women. Bros before hos, even bro-chicks outrank women to the broholes. Incels and trancels are bros, and remind me ever so much of Rohm's SA, let's hope their Night of Long Knives happens soonest.
I saw my former husband go into this very odd, self-critical but narcissistic thought path 30 years ago. They find all sorts wrong with everyone else, but can't stand the appearance of their hands.
My small contribution as a trans widow, not wanting to think about the psychiatric illness but inevitably swamped with these memories and odd details sometimes, is a movement sequence for well-being. These teens must get offline and start moving!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PixVUImemi4&t=26s
I'm curious about the word "recruitment" here. It feels like these ideologies offer similar things, but I don't know that there's something as intentional as trying to pad the numbers going on. Plus it makes it sound more centralized than it is. Take the broader RW ecosystem -- it's just that, an ecosystem, with many nodes who are cults of personality. You know what I mean? If anything, there's a bit of gatekeeping w/n certain cliques that makes in-group membership feel "earned" even if in reality they aren't super discerning...
I'm using it moreso in the cultural recruitment sense -- encouragement to see yourself that way, align yourself that way.
That makes sense!
I would also extend this to gender-critical radical feminists who "peaked" as devout TRAs. If one fell for online ideologues' irrational claims and was convinced to posit them as self-evident and undebatable, she should question whether this could happen again. Radical feminists are nowhere near as culty as TRAs, but they rely on a very rigid model of reality, of which key pieces aren't very hard to falsify, and they hold certain taboos of thought, ideas never to be seriously entertained no matter their merit. As long as you hold "if this belief can offend a group of people, it's wrong and must be silenced," you'll be held back from exploring the whole truth; swapping a fight against "transphobic" thought for a fight against "misogynistic" thought doesn't change this thought-terminating tendency.
Absolutely possible to be an ideologue when it comes to radical feminism, too.
I recall being young and fiercely believing in something--not only to bond with my peers, but also because I thought I knew better than my elders. Once my mother said, “It’s more complicated than that.” That drew me up short because I thought I had all the answers: it’s black and white! No grays! Maybe harnessing that youthful intensity, in whatever direction, is key to these movements.
understand the hate group similarities, absolutely, but are there really people who have gone from neo-nazi to trans activist? From hating Jews to hating terfs? Or is the point that trans-activism now occupies a space for angry young men which was formerly filled by neo-nazism? It is an interesting idea. I think that one of the big risks that we face is rebuffing slurs about being ‘right-wing extremists’ for not embracing the gender ideology craziness. So being able to respond with ‘No, YOU are the right wing extremists’ would be a joy. Although ‘right’ and ‘left’ wing should really apply when we look at what is going on here.
Yes, it's a frequent discussion in online trans (MTF) communities where people self-report making exactly this trip from neo-Nazi to trans.
As i understand you mean male trans identified people. I am a mother of 2 boys. i think it is important to deconstruct the environment they grow up in. And maybe its the case for both genders as there is a hypersexualisation and increasingly smaller gap to fit into the own gender. Hypermasculinity and hyperfemininity. Both are appalling. For the female perspective its the realisation of the objectification. For the male i imagine its the expectation to never ever exhibit female traits and to create as much distance to that as possible. So they start hating the females for the spaces they are permitted to occupy being soft, sensitive, sensual etc.. looking at it from the outside transidentified males display the perfomance of the femaleness they perceive with both lust and contempt side by side and with an illiteracy of femaleness that only comes with not being allowed to be soft, sensitive, emotional etc.. they are cut off and equally desperate to belong as much as to destroy it feels like. Where as trans identified females seem much less hateful in their perfomance.
my sons are still too young. But i would say i was suspicous enough of society that i created a distance between my private life versus what everybody else does or thinks is normal. I carefully choose the kindergardens and schools they go to and i am prepared to not only always watch what society wants them to believe and question it, i will step in. What i mean with stepping in is not genderideology per se but bullying. I do not tolerate any perceived norm to be an excuse for dehumanisation. Not by my sons and not by teachers or anybody else toward my sons. Conformity was never a goal in my family, but also never following ideologies. As i had bad experiences with both. But generally deconstructing the gender roles young people are subjected to in this society is a start in my opinion. Transideology can never be a solution to that though, because it has more to do with dissociaton than contemplation and inclusion.
Thank you so much for writing about this. I wonder if you might in the future consider focusing your laser insight upon another pipeline recently illuminated by Angus Fox in an article series for Quillette, When Sons Become Daughters, about high-IQ, awkward, seemingly non-autogynephile teenage boys who turn trans. It seems somewhat related to the autism-to-trans pipeline but perhaps not identical with it. https://quillette.com/tag/when-sons-become-daughters/
I think contrapoints has moments in her videos where she describes incel psychology and 4chan culture and if I am remembering correctly I think she mentions that she inhabited these spaces right before coming to terms with being trans. I think she even rationalizes this as repressing her true identity as trans before she was able to accept herself
This is a very interesting and thought-provoking essays. Brains are malleable, indeed, and they are so for a variety of reasons and under a variety of circumstances. It's also true that certain "personality characteristics" contribute to one's tendency to be shaped by social pressures. It makes sense to me that a susceptible person would be easily drawn drawn from one extreme ideology into another. Thank you for the interesting read, Frederick.
"Self-contempt produces in man 'the most unjust and criminal passions imaginable..."
Agreed.
I'm tempted to say they need therapy but not therapy that allows them to use an identity to avoid taking a good hard look at themselves, therapy that will help them cut through the bullshit and actually heal. But who knows how open they'd even be to something like that -- not likely, I imagine. So... maybe one of those programs where they have to survive in the wilderness -- anything to challenge them to grow the hell up.
Ok, but atheism is not a religion.
He's talking not about all atheists but a subset of atheists who are as fanatical about atheism as some people can be about religion.
No one is fanatical about atheism. Unless you mean those of us who refuse to sit back and watch as the religious attempt to legislate their worldview onto the rest of us. Some of us are vocal AF but, really, the only thing atheism tells you about a person is they reject the notion of all the gods.
Atheists do have a belief that there is no god- so in a sense, that is similar to the belief of religious people. (Agnostic would be not having any belief either way, because they don't know)
Well, that's not really accurate. Atheists reject all of the god claims. Very different from having a belief.
I don't want to sound pedantic here. But I can see a parallel between 'I believe in God' and 'I believe there is no God' -because neither view can be proved. I am Atheist, but I cannot definitively prove anything....
You don't sound pedantic.