I also didn’t vote! My first election not voting. I just couldn’t justify supporting either candidate, although, like Ben, I did feel some vindictive pleasure at the party that threw me under the bus losing so badly. I assumed Trump was going to win, and by a landslide. I actually am loving Rep Mace’s unapologetic and straight-talking style (and flashy clothes and rockstar vibe) on this issue and I think, as a woman, it’s obvious to me that it comes from a genuine place. She has made it very clear that as a survivor of rape and domestic abuse, and as a “girl mom” and graduate from the citadel (I cheered when she called herself a “feminist”- when was the last time anyone other than an Uber-liberal called themselves a feminist, publicly?) that she will defend women’s civil rights. I think we might see a resurgence in feminism- but this time from the right. And I think the answer to bathrooms is simple: female only bathrooms are a civil right. But so too can be appropriate bathrooms for trans people. Whatever happened to the push for accessible single-stall special needs bathrooms? Being a feminized guy or a masculinized woman counts as having “special needs” for changing rooms and bathrooms, surely? Surely we can advocate for that on the basis of “accessibility?”
Did you see what Mace said when that guy started shouting at her during the tech panel? She said “I love him, God loves him, AND his penis won’t be in my bathroom.” I feel like that’s the right approach going forward. It brings together a heart-strings/liberal-friendly compassion, religious/conservative-friendly compassion, and also very firm boundaries for women. The left will continue denigrating people like her, and anyone associated with Trump for a while, but I don’t think it will last much longer. The right is already becoming quite liberal, getting increasingly “cool,” and as soon as people start “coming out” as moderate/anti-woke on these issues the Dems will pivot. But I did publicly follow Mace on Instagram. People need to see or hear public support for these individuals. Those who are self-employed or who can risk being fired need to lead the charge here.
So many thoughtful things being discussed. I have two points I would like to add:
I seriously though about not voting, but ultimately I voted for Harris. This is why: I know we'd all like to have the kind of justice that Jamie talks about where doctors lose their licenses for the harms they have done, but I don't think that will happen. Licensing happens at the state level. The worst of the gender doctors are in blue states. It is very unlikely blue states are going to take the licenses away from doctors following APA, AAP, and AMA guidelines, as wrong as those guidelines are. I think we need to let go of the idea that we have to punish the wrongdoers. *We just need this to stop* And I think the only way out of this is through what I recently saw the LGBT courage coalition and Jamie write about: quiet quitting. This is not going to end with a spectacular admission of wrong and people getting punished. It's going to end with quiet changes in insurance policies, doctors and hospitals quietly dropping out of this, teenagers deciding this isn't the way to express their distress or gain an identity, and parents thinking there's a better, non-medical progressive way to support their gender nonconforming/highly distressed child/teen. We were seeing signs of this quiet quitting beginning, most importantly with a sharp decrease in medical procedures on minors in 2023. I think quiet quitting on the left would most likely continue under Harris, and I worry under Trump, the left, the ROGD kids, and the mothers transitioning their little kids will dig in even deeper on this as a way to show they are "part of the resistance" and "Trump will not stop them" and there will be more kids harmed through both medical and social transition and holding tighter to the ideology.
Which takes me to the second thought. I want to take Lisa's comment on how it's not kind to tell these kids they can change sex or choose their puberty. There's a lot of focus on the gender nonconforming child, the child who will likely grow up gay. But we're forgetting the huge number of teen girls and young women getting into this as an expression of extreme emotional distress and the large number of borderline personality traits (not disorder, but the traits so often seen in typical adolescents, autistic girls, and traumatized young people) and so much of what doctors, teachers, therapists, glitter families, the left, and all the "kind people" are doing is reinforcing this emotional distress and these borderline trait patterns (all or nothing thinking, blaming others, suicide threats, unstable identity, externalizing control) that will make life and relationships incredibly hard and unhappy for these girls AND THAT IS NOT KIND. Lisa mentions her own history with this unhappiness and instability in this talk and has written about in on her substack. Encouraging these thought and behavior patterns in these girls (and yes, some young men but this is overwhelmingly girls) is incredibly cruel.
Excellent and important discussion. The last question segment initiated by Eliza stood out for me and contained both thoughtful and excellent questions and answers aimed at the compassion, reality and the heart of attempts to make change and it was extremely informative.
Maybe this is already being managed but if not can I make the suggestion that the last 15 or so mins be made into short form youtube clips? It really stood out for me and it could perhaps be easier to share to those who are resistant to this perspective.
In addition, I would very much appreciate a transcript version as well to share segments with some hard core, steeped believers who perhaps can't or won't follow long form, video content.
Ty to everyone who gives their time and attention. As a parent, I’m very grateful that your ideas and resources are available to us. Otherwise, how else would we too make it through this madness?
@Lisa Selin Davis @Corinna Cohn @Jamie Reed @Ben Appel
Corinne mentioned that the pastors who were testifying had very little knowledge of the gender world beyond their own situations. This means we have to motivate more people to continue to reach out and educate others by means of conversations, writing, and content creation. For many, the election will make them braver.
I loved this conversation. Have shared it on the Facebook page of an extremely left-wing Rabbi friend. Because people on that end of things need to know that these nuanced conversations are possible.
One thing I felt should have been mentioned is that with this whole bathroom thing it is not symmetric. Keeping males out of female toilets IS essential. BUT an absolute rule keeping females out of male toilets could backfire.
If some trans medicalised females believe that they would be perceived as men and are courteous enough to keep out of the female facilities when third spaces are not available, I think they should be allowed to do that. If we don’t allow that, we run the risk of actual men pretending to be masculinised females and getting around the rules.
This was pointed out on Twitter by someone else and I think it needs discussion.
Five of my favorite Substackers/podcasters/speakers/writers! Thank you for a thoughtful nuanced conversation.
The discussion about how to talk to people entrenched in this ideology: I keep thinking about how it's like trying to talk to people in a cult. The clergy Cory talked to had family members in the cult--they would feel like they would be hurting that family member to understand anything Cory said. The podcast "A Little Bit Culty" has had some interesting discussions about how people leave a cult and why. One important element: they joined in order to do good. Hearing what tipped people to finally leave might give us clues about how to talk to gender cultists.
Which brings me to the effort on the part of gender ideologues to conflate people with concepts. If you criticize trans ideology or the idea that someone can change sex, then you must be criticizing the person who believes it. And that is one reason that so many women (with their misplaced and "suicidal empathy") are so committed to this.
I was relieved that Harris lost (although I had thought I had wanted her to win even though I didn't vote for her) because now there can be vocal pushback. Yes, Trump Derangement Syndrome will cause a backlash and doubling down, but if the flow of federal funding to hospitals with gender clinics ends, if Title IX is fixed, if detransitioner lawsuits and resulting insurance payouts leave gender clinicians without insurance (and thus unlikely to continue chopping off the breasts of children), then that will be good. I believe there is increased emboldenment among those who see the harms.
And Nancy Mace is my new hero! There's a viral clip of her confronting trans activist Alejandra Caballero with his violent tweets:
What a great group of minds and a wonderful discussion. Would love to see a Venn Diagram of the bathroom issue.
Ben's final comment on trans increasing to be part of a Trump resistance is troubling. I've been hoping we're past 'peak trans' and this is on its way to being over. ROGD trans seems to have an element of teenage empathy, which the 'resistance' would surely capitalize on.
Others have noted that the politicization of trans and concentration in Dem views means that trans will be elevated to a role of "holy innocent" in Dem circles. What is absolutely necessary is the find the actual outcome information to let people know what goes on. What do PBs do? Wrong-sex hormones? How common is detransition?
In overlooking the progressive blog where I hang I feel that people are still not ready for a reckoning. The problem is that people derive status from taking what they regard as the progressive position. The misguided compassion you spoke of is a badge of self-bestowed virtue. The GOP has cannily played us in this regard. They know that every outrage they commit in bad faith will only commit us further to this folly because it enhances our idea of ourselves as the righteous, the just.
Most progressives do not view the outcome in any sense like conservatives. For progressives, they reject the notion that Woke was key, that illegals were resented by multiple groups, that trannie logic is rejected by 90% of US voters. The progressives continue to say that it was Fox News that persuaded low-information voters to vote for a felon who should be in jail.
I'm not an American but if I was I don't think I would've voted either, I didn't vote in the last UK election because *all* of the parties I would've previously considered voting for are pro trans. I feel like I've lost something important, in the past I've always voted because I believed it was my civic duty to do so, but this time I couldn't. The 2024 General Election was the first time I didn't want Labour to win, or at least not win so convincingly.
Trump winning was a satisfying repudiation of what the Dems currently represent in American politics, and I'm hoping his administration cleans house on a lot of the pro trans (and pro woke) policies at the federal level. Obviously this is going to lead to cries of genocide from the left, and this is where things get tricky for me. If the progressives/liberals/leftists across the west just double down on trans and woke, at what point do I just throw my hands up and say I'm no longer satisfied with being a disaffected progressive/liberal/leftist who's fine standing aside while Conservatives do my dirty work? At what point do I accept that the political landscape has changed and that I'm basically a conservative now because leftists aren't allowed to believe in binary sex categorisation?
I think we could be living through a political realignment of the same scale that happened in the 60's when the Dems brought in the Civil Rights Act and basically lost the South to the Republicans. I wouldn't have voted for Trump in the last election despite the damage I think the Dems are doing by pushing gender ideology, but in four years if things haven't changed on the left maybe I will end up supporting the Republican candidate.
On a lighter note Eliza you continue to win at set design for your interviews. Crisp cinematography coupled with well placed set dressing and lighting. Do the plants actually live on that windowsill/hatch or were they moved there to enhance the scene? The orange light was a nice touch as well. It added a dash of warmth to what was otherwise a cold looking room.
I also didn’t vote! My first election not voting. I just couldn’t justify supporting either candidate, although, like Ben, I did feel some vindictive pleasure at the party that threw me under the bus losing so badly. I assumed Trump was going to win, and by a landslide. I actually am loving Rep Mace’s unapologetic and straight-talking style (and flashy clothes and rockstar vibe) on this issue and I think, as a woman, it’s obvious to me that it comes from a genuine place. She has made it very clear that as a survivor of rape and domestic abuse, and as a “girl mom” and graduate from the citadel (I cheered when she called herself a “feminist”- when was the last time anyone other than an Uber-liberal called themselves a feminist, publicly?) that she will defend women’s civil rights. I think we might see a resurgence in feminism- but this time from the right. And I think the answer to bathrooms is simple: female only bathrooms are a civil right. But so too can be appropriate bathrooms for trans people. Whatever happened to the push for accessible single-stall special needs bathrooms? Being a feminized guy or a masculinized woman counts as having “special needs” for changing rooms and bathrooms, surely? Surely we can advocate for that on the basis of “accessibility?”
Did you see what Mace said when that guy started shouting at her during the tech panel? She said “I love him, God loves him, AND his penis won’t be in my bathroom.” I feel like that’s the right approach going forward. It brings together a heart-strings/liberal-friendly compassion, religious/conservative-friendly compassion, and also very firm boundaries for women. The left will continue denigrating people like her, and anyone associated with Trump for a while, but I don’t think it will last much longer. The right is already becoming quite liberal, getting increasingly “cool,” and as soon as people start “coming out” as moderate/anti-woke on these issues the Dems will pivot. But I did publicly follow Mace on Instagram. People need to see or hear public support for these individuals. Those who are self-employed or who can risk being fired need to lead the charge here.
So many thoughtful things being discussed. I have two points I would like to add:
I seriously though about not voting, but ultimately I voted for Harris. This is why: I know we'd all like to have the kind of justice that Jamie talks about where doctors lose their licenses for the harms they have done, but I don't think that will happen. Licensing happens at the state level. The worst of the gender doctors are in blue states. It is very unlikely blue states are going to take the licenses away from doctors following APA, AAP, and AMA guidelines, as wrong as those guidelines are. I think we need to let go of the idea that we have to punish the wrongdoers. *We just need this to stop* And I think the only way out of this is through what I recently saw the LGBT courage coalition and Jamie write about: quiet quitting. This is not going to end with a spectacular admission of wrong and people getting punished. It's going to end with quiet changes in insurance policies, doctors and hospitals quietly dropping out of this, teenagers deciding this isn't the way to express their distress or gain an identity, and parents thinking there's a better, non-medical progressive way to support their gender nonconforming/highly distressed child/teen. We were seeing signs of this quiet quitting beginning, most importantly with a sharp decrease in medical procedures on minors in 2023. I think quiet quitting on the left would most likely continue under Harris, and I worry under Trump, the left, the ROGD kids, and the mothers transitioning their little kids will dig in even deeper on this as a way to show they are "part of the resistance" and "Trump will not stop them" and there will be more kids harmed through both medical and social transition and holding tighter to the ideology.
Which takes me to the second thought. I want to take Lisa's comment on how it's not kind to tell these kids they can change sex or choose their puberty. There's a lot of focus on the gender nonconforming child, the child who will likely grow up gay. But we're forgetting the huge number of teen girls and young women getting into this as an expression of extreme emotional distress and the large number of borderline personality traits (not disorder, but the traits so often seen in typical adolescents, autistic girls, and traumatized young people) and so much of what doctors, teachers, therapists, glitter families, the left, and all the "kind people" are doing is reinforcing this emotional distress and these borderline trait patterns (all or nothing thinking, blaming others, suicide threats, unstable identity, externalizing control) that will make life and relationships incredibly hard and unhappy for these girls AND THAT IS NOT KIND. Lisa mentions her own history with this unhappiness and instability in this talk and has written about in on her substack. Encouraging these thought and behavior patterns in these girls (and yes, some young men but this is overwhelmingly girls) is incredibly cruel.
Excellent and important discussion. The last question segment initiated by Eliza stood out for me and contained both thoughtful and excellent questions and answers aimed at the compassion, reality and the heart of attempts to make change and it was extremely informative.
Maybe this is already being managed but if not can I make the suggestion that the last 15 or so mins be made into short form youtube clips? It really stood out for me and it could perhaps be easier to share to those who are resistant to this perspective.
In addition, I would very much appreciate a transcript version as well to share segments with some hard core, steeped believers who perhaps can't or won't follow long form, video content.
Ty to everyone who gives their time and attention. As a parent, I’m very grateful that your ideas and resources are available to us. Otherwise, how else would we too make it through this madness?
@Lisa Selin Davis @Corinna Cohn @Jamie Reed @Ben Appel
Is a transcript available?
Corinne mentioned that the pastors who were testifying had very little knowledge of the gender world beyond their own situations. This means we have to motivate more people to continue to reach out and educate others by means of conversations, writing, and content creation. For many, the election will make them braver.
I loved this conversation. Have shared it on the Facebook page of an extremely left-wing Rabbi friend. Because people on that end of things need to know that these nuanced conversations are possible.
One thing I felt should have been mentioned is that with this whole bathroom thing it is not symmetric. Keeping males out of female toilets IS essential. BUT an absolute rule keeping females out of male toilets could backfire.
If some trans medicalised females believe that they would be perceived as men and are courteous enough to keep out of the female facilities when third spaces are not available, I think they should be allowed to do that. If we don’t allow that, we run the risk of actual men pretending to be masculinised females and getting around the rules.
This was pointed out on Twitter by someone else and I think it needs discussion.
Five of my favorite Substackers/podcasters/speakers/writers! Thank you for a thoughtful nuanced conversation.
The discussion about how to talk to people entrenched in this ideology: I keep thinking about how it's like trying to talk to people in a cult. The clergy Cory talked to had family members in the cult--they would feel like they would be hurting that family member to understand anything Cory said. The podcast "A Little Bit Culty" has had some interesting discussions about how people leave a cult and why. One important element: they joined in order to do good. Hearing what tipped people to finally leave might give us clues about how to talk to gender cultists.
Which brings me to the effort on the part of gender ideologues to conflate people with concepts. If you criticize trans ideology or the idea that someone can change sex, then you must be criticizing the person who believes it. And that is one reason that so many women (with their misplaced and "suicidal empathy") are so committed to this.
I was relieved that Harris lost (although I had thought I had wanted her to win even though I didn't vote for her) because now there can be vocal pushback. Yes, Trump Derangement Syndrome will cause a backlash and doubling down, but if the flow of federal funding to hospitals with gender clinics ends, if Title IX is fixed, if detransitioner lawsuits and resulting insurance payouts leave gender clinicians without insurance (and thus unlikely to continue chopping off the breasts of children), then that will be good. I believe there is increased emboldenment among those who see the harms.
And Nancy Mace is my new hero! There's a viral clip of her confronting trans activist Alejandra Caballero with his violent tweets:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mB26uArS88
What a great group of minds and a wonderful discussion. Would love to see a Venn Diagram of the bathroom issue.
Ben's final comment on trans increasing to be part of a Trump resistance is troubling. I've been hoping we're past 'peak trans' and this is on its way to being over. ROGD trans seems to have an element of teenage empathy, which the 'resistance' would surely capitalize on.
Others have noted that the politicization of trans and concentration in Dem views means that trans will be elevated to a role of "holy innocent" in Dem circles. What is absolutely necessary is the find the actual outcome information to let people know what goes on. What do PBs do? Wrong-sex hormones? How common is detransition?
In overlooking the progressive blog where I hang I feel that people are still not ready for a reckoning. The problem is that people derive status from taking what they regard as the progressive position. The misguided compassion you spoke of is a badge of self-bestowed virtue. The GOP has cannily played us in this regard. They know that every outrage they commit in bad faith will only commit us further to this folly because it enhances our idea of ourselves as the righteous, the just.
Most progressives do not view the outcome in any sense like conservatives. For progressives, they reject the notion that Woke was key, that illegals were resented by multiple groups, that trannie logic is rejected by 90% of US voters. The progressives continue to say that it was Fox News that persuaded low-information voters to vote for a felon who should be in jail.
I'm not an American but if I was I don't think I would've voted either, I didn't vote in the last UK election because *all* of the parties I would've previously considered voting for are pro trans. I feel like I've lost something important, in the past I've always voted because I believed it was my civic duty to do so, but this time I couldn't. The 2024 General Election was the first time I didn't want Labour to win, or at least not win so convincingly.
Trump winning was a satisfying repudiation of what the Dems currently represent in American politics, and I'm hoping his administration cleans house on a lot of the pro trans (and pro woke) policies at the federal level. Obviously this is going to lead to cries of genocide from the left, and this is where things get tricky for me. If the progressives/liberals/leftists across the west just double down on trans and woke, at what point do I just throw my hands up and say I'm no longer satisfied with being a disaffected progressive/liberal/leftist who's fine standing aside while Conservatives do my dirty work? At what point do I accept that the political landscape has changed and that I'm basically a conservative now because leftists aren't allowed to believe in binary sex categorisation?
I think we could be living through a political realignment of the same scale that happened in the 60's when the Dems brought in the Civil Rights Act and basically lost the South to the Republicans. I wouldn't have voted for Trump in the last election despite the damage I think the Dems are doing by pushing gender ideology, but in four years if things haven't changed on the left maybe I will end up supporting the Republican candidate.
On a lighter note Eliza you continue to win at set design for your interviews. Crisp cinematography coupled with well placed set dressing and lighting. Do the plants actually live on that windowsill/hatch or were they moved there to enhance the scene? The orange light was a nice touch as well. It added a dash of warmth to what was otherwise a cold looking room.
The plants live there all the time!
lovely peeps
Do you realize you do not want Nancy Mace to dress and speak as she wants?
What does this mean in English?