My latest for UnHerd: There’s a lot to say about The New York Times’ profile of a 20-person polycule in Cambridge, Massachusetts, an article that reads like a very tedious one-act play or a very short History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.
"Robert (Ann’s husband) We have this motto: ... At the start, I was going through some depression, and when we had sex I had so much stress. There were issues in the bedroom with her, and that happened many times, which caused more stress. She started seeing this dude who was an absolute stud, having sex with him and having a great-ass time, and I felt totally lame and inadequate.
That was really hard for me, for obvious reasons. I felt like, I’m a hundred percent replaceable. It took a lot of conversations. She was like, There’s nothing wrong with you, this is going to pass, therapy will help. Lots of tears were shed. But medication helped me, talk therapy helped me, changing the way we do things helped."
Reading this made me depressed. Imagine feeling sad that your wife is fucking somebody else and thinking "this is a problem with me, I need to fix myself". Even puff pieces trying to promote polyamory as an alternative lifestyle choice make it sound miserable and emotionally abusive. Literally this tweet (https://twitter.com/_evFM/status/1673521400290713600).
Hey, here’s an idea. Let’s destroy all social norms and forget everything that has ever been learned about human flourishing. Oh, and especially important, let’s be sure to ignore what happened to past experiments, like communes and cults and the like, that destroyed social norms.
I’m sure nothing will go wrong for us. We’re progressive!
For them, the very fact that there is so much friction, pain and discomfort is proof that they're doing it right. I'm sure it strengthens their sense of purpose in that regard: "I must be in this pain because I'm challenging my lifelong amatonormative brainwashing!"
It all just sounds like the ‘new’ (read humans never change ) version of polygamy pretending to be liberating for women. The 60’s flower power also ended up being destructive for so many young women who were conned into and EXPECTED to sleep with everyone. Nothing ever changes. They just make up new words for it.
This is some of the best examples of rationalization, justification and intellectualization that one can find. It is a poor attempt to try and come across as liberated and above the fray as they are so cosmically better able to see what the lowly uneducated and working class cannot see!
I am “poly” and have been since I started dating as a teen…but only started having a requirement for it built into my relationships for about 12 years now…Would not touch most of these people with a ten foot pole. The complications of having young immature people in your life are not at all worth any benefit they provide.
I don’t go out looking for other people. I simply am not a believer in the social construct that it is healthy to close down all romantic love that emerges from friendships with others simply because I already feel romantic love for my partner.
It isn’t about sex (which I don’t have much of anyway), but about the very rare magic that comes from knowing someone deeply and being “more than friends”. I do not believe that anyone but the two people involved in that should have a say in whether or not it is acknowledged…And Trying to shove it under the surface does not make it disappear.
My partner and I have been together 11 years and we both made this a clear boundary before we started dating.
I feel sad for these kids who are putting themselves in this in such a complicated way…20 partners…wtf
I lived in Portland for ten years…the amount of people who were poly in a very damaging manner…was pretty much all who were “poly”. To date in those circles was to ensure a very messy, complicated experience. The amount of covert narcissists who matched on to different (usually women) and manipulated them…very ugly situation
Oh my, I finally looked up the archive to this article and it’s SO much worse than I expected. The main couple sounds so unsuitable for each other: he’s a frat boy and she’s an “alien queer witch” wtf? No wonder they are dating other people.
Yeesh, this sure brings back memories of my poly days and how emotionally exhausting it all was. You are spot on that poly women generally end up doing most of the emotional labor. The very best man I ever dated, in something like 15 years, couldn’t even manage his own personal Google calendar to avoid double booking and canceling on me last minute.
I would like to ask the members of this polycule, what happens when a member, or multiple members, of your group, is in lust or in love with a new person who is a two-faced toxic narcissist who has an agenda to destroy existing relationships, but the members are too drunk on NRE (new relationship energy, that giddy feeling of new love or new infatuation) to see it, and they want to add them to the group? I refuse to believe that has never happened. I literally ceased being actively poly, in part, because I was tired of falling in love with men who made terrible partner choices that affected me badly too.
Another reason I exited the community is because I was very tired of being treated like an uptight wallflower simply because I am heterosexual. I literally had multiple, otherwise nice, people tell me that straight women were no fun. And multiple straight men whom I had a mild interest in, were completely closed to the idea of getting involved with me because I wasn’t good bait to get another woman into a MFF threesome situation, otherwise known as a triad. The women in the NYT article don’t seem to have that problem, they are all “queer.” I’m assuming it is a “no straight women allowed” group, same as I experienced for all those years.
I‘ve never met a polyamorous - group, cluster, family😳- where not at least one member was miserable to the core. Usually there‘s a power dynamic that supports a patriarchal hierarchy, independant of who the more powerful members are, men or women. There‘s the same problem any group has. Various needs and ability and/or will of/for self awareness. That‘s my observation and also what I hear from ex polyamorous people.
In a group with another purpose than to share intimacy and very private other things, that might work out somehow for a while when non existential needs are the main focus. I suspect that the reason to „go polyamorous“ is often that the „couple thing“ didn‘t go well and instead of figuring out why, they look for several options at the same time. Like people who have a dog they can‘t handle and as „solution“ they look for a 2nd dog with the hope that would bring peace into the house…
Well, if there is a polyamorous group that is functioning well, great but I remain a sceptic! I never saw it work out fine! But I witnessed how many pretended to be all fine until they broke down or got in a huge terrible fight with one or several lovers..In my opinion it would take a lot of maturity and self reflection to share anything constantly else we either suppress a lot of possible anger, disappointment and/ or have egoistic traits to just take what we need anytime.. because there‘s not enough room to always discuss the dynamics together the way we generally live these days.
“It is about making the world a better place.” Nico praises the fact that the polycule is “female-run. " How empowering! Forget getting more women in STEM ... We urgently need to get them in polycules lest they become victims of patriarchy. We need a catchy name for this campaign. Maybe WIPE? (Women in Polycule Empowerment)?
I can provide a date on this trend. In 2012 there was a Netroots Nation panel on polyamory and plural marraige. I saw it in the schedule and distinctly recall it was touted as a "breakthrough" event for "nontraditional families" or something like that. I did not attend that year.
Emma Goldman lived in the time when sex meant pregnancies. The children of the selfish "harem" people must be so messed up. Oy veh is mir.
And, my reaction so far, to the overreaction of the likes of Erin/Anthony Reed, to The Cass Review. He needs to get over himself, but quick. It appears there's a 5 or so year old son involved. Someone please get the trans widow in touch with me.
If, in polyamory, jealousy or complications arise then you have to ‘communicate’ and communicate again, you don’t stop communicating … My reaction exactly Elsa: who has time for this? Although I do enjoy a bit of schadenfreude, chuckling at the mess that some people create for themselves.
"Robert (Ann’s husband) We have this motto: ... At the start, I was going through some depression, and when we had sex I had so much stress. There were issues in the bedroom with her, and that happened many times, which caused more stress. She started seeing this dude who was an absolute stud, having sex with him and having a great-ass time, and I felt totally lame and inadequate.
That was really hard for me, for obvious reasons. I felt like, I’m a hundred percent replaceable. It took a lot of conversations. She was like, There’s nothing wrong with you, this is going to pass, therapy will help. Lots of tears were shed. But medication helped me, talk therapy helped me, changing the way we do things helped."
Reading this made me depressed. Imagine feeling sad that your wife is fucking somebody else and thinking "this is a problem with me, I need to fix myself". Even puff pieces trying to promote polyamory as an alternative lifestyle choice make it sound miserable and emotionally abusive. Literally this tweet (https://twitter.com/_evFM/status/1673521400290713600).
Hey, here’s an idea. Let’s destroy all social norms and forget everything that has ever been learned about human flourishing. Oh, and especially important, let’s be sure to ignore what happened to past experiments, like communes and cults and the like, that destroyed social norms.
I’m sure nothing will go wrong for us. We’re progressive!
For them, the very fact that there is so much friction, pain and discomfort is proof that they're doing it right. I'm sure it strengthens their sense of purpose in that regard: "I must be in this pain because I'm challenging my lifelong amatonormative brainwashing!"
It all just sounds like the ‘new’ (read humans never change ) version of polygamy pretending to be liberating for women. The 60’s flower power also ended up being destructive for so many young women who were conned into and EXPECTED to sleep with everyone. Nothing ever changes. They just make up new words for it.
This is some of the best examples of rationalization, justification and intellectualization that one can find. It is a poor attempt to try and come across as liberated and above the fray as they are so cosmically better able to see what the lowly uneducated and working class cannot see!
I am “poly” and have been since I started dating as a teen…but only started having a requirement for it built into my relationships for about 12 years now…Would not touch most of these people with a ten foot pole. The complications of having young immature people in your life are not at all worth any benefit they provide.
I don’t go out looking for other people. I simply am not a believer in the social construct that it is healthy to close down all romantic love that emerges from friendships with others simply because I already feel romantic love for my partner.
It isn’t about sex (which I don’t have much of anyway), but about the very rare magic that comes from knowing someone deeply and being “more than friends”. I do not believe that anyone but the two people involved in that should have a say in whether or not it is acknowledged…And Trying to shove it under the surface does not make it disappear.
My partner and I have been together 11 years and we both made this a clear boundary before we started dating.
I feel sad for these kids who are putting themselves in this in such a complicated way…20 partners…wtf
I lived in Portland for ten years…the amount of people who were poly in a very damaging manner…was pretty much all who were “poly”. To date in those circles was to ensure a very messy, complicated experience. The amount of covert narcissists who matched on to different (usually women) and manipulated them…very ugly situation
Oh my, I finally looked up the archive to this article and it’s SO much worse than I expected. The main couple sounds so unsuitable for each other: he’s a frat boy and she’s an “alien queer witch” wtf? No wonder they are dating other people.
Yeesh, this sure brings back memories of my poly days and how emotionally exhausting it all was. You are spot on that poly women generally end up doing most of the emotional labor. The very best man I ever dated, in something like 15 years, couldn’t even manage his own personal Google calendar to avoid double booking and canceling on me last minute.
I would like to ask the members of this polycule, what happens when a member, or multiple members, of your group, is in lust or in love with a new person who is a two-faced toxic narcissist who has an agenda to destroy existing relationships, but the members are too drunk on NRE (new relationship energy, that giddy feeling of new love or new infatuation) to see it, and they want to add them to the group? I refuse to believe that has never happened. I literally ceased being actively poly, in part, because I was tired of falling in love with men who made terrible partner choices that affected me badly too.
Another reason I exited the community is because I was very tired of being treated like an uptight wallflower simply because I am heterosexual. I literally had multiple, otherwise nice, people tell me that straight women were no fun. And multiple straight men whom I had a mild interest in, were completely closed to the idea of getting involved with me because I wasn’t good bait to get another woman into a MFF threesome situation, otherwise known as a triad. The women in the NYT article don’t seem to have that problem, they are all “queer.” I’m assuming it is a “no straight women allowed” group, same as I experienced for all those years.
I have never seen a hot polyamorous person
I‘ve never met a polyamorous - group, cluster, family😳- where not at least one member was miserable to the core. Usually there‘s a power dynamic that supports a patriarchal hierarchy, independant of who the more powerful members are, men or women. There‘s the same problem any group has. Various needs and ability and/or will of/for self awareness. That‘s my observation and also what I hear from ex polyamorous people.
In a group with another purpose than to share intimacy and very private other things, that might work out somehow for a while when non existential needs are the main focus. I suspect that the reason to „go polyamorous“ is often that the „couple thing“ didn‘t go well and instead of figuring out why, they look for several options at the same time. Like people who have a dog they can‘t handle and as „solution“ they look for a 2nd dog with the hope that would bring peace into the house…
Well, if there is a polyamorous group that is functioning well, great but I remain a sceptic! I never saw it work out fine! But I witnessed how many pretended to be all fine until they broke down or got in a huge terrible fight with one or several lovers..In my opinion it would take a lot of maturity and self reflection to share anything constantly else we either suppress a lot of possible anger, disappointment and/ or have egoistic traits to just take what we need anytime.. because there‘s not enough room to always discuss the dynamics together the way we generally live these days.
“It is about making the world a better place.” Nico praises the fact that the polycule is “female-run. " How empowering! Forget getting more women in STEM ... We urgently need to get them in polycules lest they become victims of patriarchy. We need a catchy name for this campaign. Maybe WIPE? (Women in Polycule Empowerment)?
“They don’t ask the big questions such as WHY????”
You made me laugh out loud. 😂
But it’s also sad—people get swept up in things and don’t ask themselves that basic question.
Perhaps because the answer would be “because everyone else is doing it” and that would not sound cool.
I can provide a date on this trend. In 2012 there was a Netroots Nation panel on polyamory and plural marraige. I saw it in the schedule and distinctly recall it was touted as a "breakthrough" event for "nontraditional families" or something like that. I did not attend that year.
Emma Goldman lived in the time when sex meant pregnancies. The children of the selfish "harem" people must be so messed up. Oy veh is mir.
And, my reaction so far, to the overreaction of the likes of Erin/Anthony Reed, to The Cass Review. He needs to get over himself, but quick. It appears there's a 5 or so year old son involved. Someone please get the trans widow in touch with me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjmFcWf62fY&t=16s
If, in polyamory, jealousy or complications arise then you have to ‘communicate’ and communicate again, you don’t stop communicating … My reaction exactly Elsa: who has time for this? Although I do enjoy a bit of schadenfreude, chuckling at the mess that some people create for themselves.
tragic.